Friday, September 24, 2010

Nolan and Ichiro

This is going to be about Ichiro Suzuki, and so you may find it strange that it begins with Nolan Ryan. I think the comparison will make sense by the time we're done here, but frankly I'm a bit worried about something. I'm worried that people will think I'm making judgements about Ichiro and Ryan, about the way they play the game, about their CHOICES in baseball. I'm not. I don't even know that they have actually MADE choices. This probably doesn't make any sense to you at all. Maybe it will. Well, we will just dive in and see where this thing goes.

Let's start with an odd question: Was Nolan Ryan (compared with the greatest pitchers in baseball history) better at striking out batters or better at walking them?

An odd question, yes. Ryan, you probably know, is the all-time record holder in strikeouts with 5,714. Only Randy Johnson, in baseball history, is within 1,000 strikeouts of Ryan. Nobody is within 800 Ks.

Ryan, you probably know, is also the all-time record holder in walks with 2,795. Only Steve Carlton and Phil Niekro are within 1,000 walks. Nobody is within 950.

So what record is more impressive, if impressive is the word to use? Well, by quick-and-dirty percentages, the walk record is far more impressive. Ryan struck out 17% more batters than No. 2 Randy Johnson, which is amazing. But he walked 53% more batters than Steve Carlton, which is off the charts. To give you an idea just how remarkable that is, look a this:

-- Wayne Gretzky holds the NHL record with 2,857 points.

-- Mark Messier is second with 1,887 points.

That means Gretzky has scored 51.4% more points than any player in the history of the NHL. That also means that the gap between Gretzky and anyone else when it comes to points is SMALLER than the gap between Ryan and anyone else when it comes to walks.

Look at this:

-- Jerry Rice holds the NFL record with 22,895 receiving yards.

-- Issac Bruce is second with 15,208 yards.

That means Rice has gained 50.5% more receiving yards than any player in the history of NFL. And yes, that gap too is smaller than the gap between Ryan and any other pitcher in walks.

Ryan is simply untouchable as a walker. Yes, he was amazing at striking people out -- especially considering that hitters didn't strike out as much in the era when he pitched -- but there are other people in the "greatest strikeout pitcher" argument. Johnson, after all, struck out 10.6 per nine innings, more than one strikeout per game higher than Ryan. Pedro Martinez had a significantly better strikeout rate. Sandy Koufax's career was much shorter, but once he figured things out -- the last eight years of his career -- his strikeout rate was virtually identical to Ryan's. Walter Johnson led the league in strikeouts 12 times when hitters didn't strike out. You certainly could argue that Ryan was the greatest strikeout pitcher ever, and you would have the hammer stat of "career strikeouts" as your closing argument. But there IS an argument.

But when it comes to walks -- no argument. None. If Bobby Witt or Johnny Vandemeer had managed to hang on a bit longer, maybe they could be in the discussion. But for pitchers with enduring careers -- 2,500 innings or 150 wins -- Ryan is all alone. His 4.67 walks per nine innings is epic. He averaged a full walk more per nine than any pitcher in the 300-win club. Only Feller and Bobo Newsome, among pitcher who won 200 games, walked more than 4 batters per nine, and neither are within a half walk of Ryan.

OK, but, those are just numbers. What do they mean?

Well, I think this means something pretty obvious: Nolan Ryan pitched a certain way, and never really stopped pitching that certain way. He pitched for the strikeout. Always. Now, here's where I want to again make the point about choices. I don't know that this was a choice on Ryan's part. I'm not sure that Ryan (as many people have suggested) COULD have pulled back, induced more contact, sacrificed some strikeouts for better control. The theme that surrounded Ryan, as Bill James pointed out in the New Historical Abstract, is that he never compromised, never gave in, and people disagreed whether this was being true to himself and his craft (the majority opinion) or bullheadedness that prevented him from being a greater but less noteworthy pitcher (the minority opinion). Again, I really don't know. Maybe Nolan Ryan DECIDED to pitch that way. Then again, maybe he HAD to pitch that way.

The reasons why Ryan pitched the way he did -- by choice or by need -- are not really material here. The point here is that Ryan was quite possibly the best ever at two pretty significant (and related) pitcher things:

1. He was probably the greatest strikeout pitcher ever.

2. He was probably the hardest pitcher ever to hit.

Those two things could have made Ryan the best pitcher in baseball history. But they didn't. No pitcher in baseball history has given up fewer hits per nine innings (6.55). And yet, when you look Ryan's walks and hits per inning -- his WHIP -- he suddenly jumps up to, well, take a guess. Go ahead. Where do you think Ryan ranks in WHIP, remembering that he's No. 1 in hits per nine innings pitched.

I suspect you guessed low. Try 265th. Marty Pattin had a lower WHIP than Nolan Ryan. Bill Swift had a lower WHIP than Nolan Ryan. John Smiley had a lower WHIP than Nolan Ryan. And so on.

No pitcher struck out more batters. But then you add in the walks. You throw in his remarkable skill at throwing wild pitches -- his 277 is 50 more than second-place Phil Niekro. You throw in his preposterous inability to prevent runners from stealing bases -- Ryan's 757 stolen bases allowed are BY FAR the most allowed; that's 200-plus more than Greg Maddux, who is second on the list. You throw in his general struggles with fielding his position. No good pitcher in baseball history did the big things better; but perhaps no good pitcher in baseball history did the little things worse. And that is how a guy most would call the most unhittable and greatest strikeout pitcher in baseball history ends up with a bland 112 ERA+ and ends up over an astonishingly long career allowing more runs than any pitcher in history except Niekro.

Because of all this it's hard to really define Ryan as a pitcher. He's the most extraordinary pitcher who ever lived, I think. But I also think he's not especially close to the best.

Which leads us to Ichiro. I would say that Ichiro Suzuki, even with his career still going and even though he spent his first few years in Japan, is already the greatest singles hitter in the history of Major League baseball. At this point, I'm not even sure there's a runner-up.

You already know all about Ichiro's hit exploits. He is:

-- The first player in baseball history to get 200 hits in eight, nine and now 10 consecutive seasons.

-- About to lead the league in hits for the seventh time -- and his other three big league seasons he finished second.

-- The only player in baseball history to get 675 plate appearances and hit .300 10 years in a row (Lou Gehrig was close but one year he fell just three plate appearances short).

Let's put it this way: Ichiro came to America when he was 27 years old. At that point, he had 1,278 hits in Japan. You cannot count those hits in the Major Leagues, of course, but I'd say if anything, 1,278 hits is probably FEWER hits than he would have had he started his career here. Anyway, for fun, let's give him those 1,278 hits.

He doesn't turn 37 until October, so that means that through his age 36 season, he has had 3,510 professional baseball hits. Here's how that would rank in baseball history.

Hits through age 36:

1. Ichiro, 3,510

2. Ty Cobb, 3,453

3. Hank Aaron, 3,110

4. Robin Young, 3.025

5. Pete Rose, 2.966*

*Put it this way: When I talked to Pete for The Machine, he flat told me: "Hey, tell Ichiro he can even count his hits in Japan. I don't care. He ain't getting to 4,000 hits" Yep, Pete was a big man then. But Ichiro has had something like 700 or 800 hits since then, and I now see interviews with Pete singing a different tune about how -- COME ON! Japan is Triple A baseball! You can't count those hits! You've got to be KIDDING ME! What do you want to count my hits in MACON?

That little change sums up Pete Rose the man just about as well as anything else.

So, you know what kind of hit machine Ichiro has been. Well, you should also know that 81% -- EIGHTY ONE PERCENT of his hits -- have been singles. If that sounds high, well, yeah, it's historically high. We'll get to that in a minute. Ichiro is a singles man. He has four of the Top 10 singles seasons in baseball history, and half of those Top 10 seasons were in the 19th century.

If you start in 1901, the Top 5 singles seasons look like this:

1. Ichiro, 225 (2004)

2. Ichiro, 206 (2007)

3. Lloyd Waner, 198 (1927)

4. Ichiro, 192 (2001)

5. Wade Boggs, 187 (1985)

He has led the league in singles every single season he has been in the big leagues. Every single year. And not only has he led the league, he has DESTROYED the league.

2001: Led league by 53 singles (Shannon Stewart runner up).

2002: Led league by 18 singles (Derek Jeter).

2003: Led league by 14 singles (Michael Young)

2004: Led league by 73 singles (Young)

2005: Led league by 5 singles (Jeter)

2006: Led league by 28 singles (Jeter)

2007: Led league by 48 singles (Young)

2008: Led league by 36 singles (Orlando Cabrera)

2009: Led league by 13 singles (Jeter)

2010: Leads league by 18 singles (Juan Pierre)

He is simply untouchable as a literal-sense "hitter." He is the Nolan Ryan of hits. He is the Nolan Ryan of singles. Like with Ryan, you cannot help but feel awe watching the man perform. He's absolutely amazing.

But, wait. Amazing is one thing. How GOOD an offensive player is Ichiro? And this takes us into more complicated territory. Because, like Ryan, it seems that Ichiro does big things a lot better than he does little things. Ichiro is probably the best at hitting 'em where they ain't since the speaker of that quote, Wee Willie Keeler. But that's not all there is to being a great offensive players, is it?

No. It's not. Yes, Ichiro he has 200 hits every single season -- he's leading the lead for the seventh time -- but do you know how many times he has led the league in times on base?

Once. That was 2004.

In fact, except for 2004, he has never finished second or third in times on base either. His 260 hits in a season is a record, of course, but his career-high 315 times on base actually ranks in a tie for 58th all-time, just one ahead of Chuck Knoblauch's 1996 season and one behind Mo Vaughn's 1996 season.

And, more, that's the ONLY time Ichiro has gotten on base 300 times in a season. His next best was 290 times on base in 2007 -- and that ranks in a tie for 257th all-time (tied with, among others, Bobby Abreu in 2006, Tony Phillips in 1996 and Bernie Williams in 2002 -- and those were not the career high seasons for any of the three).

The big reason for the gap is that Ichiro doesn't walk. He just doesn't. He's led the league in hitting twice and finished second twice more. But he's never led the league in on-base percentage, only once finished in the Top 5, one three times finished in the Top 10.

His .376 on-base percentage is certainly good, but he's hitting .331 -- it's almost all batting average. Put it this way; There are 25 players in baseball history with 3,000 or more plate appearances and a batting average of higher than .325. Twenty five super-high average players. Ichiro Suzuki has the lowest on-base percentage of any of them.

He is walking one time in 16 plate appearances. That's just an extremely low number, especially for a good hitter.

So he doesn't walk. That means that while his hitting is historically great, his on-base percentage is not. Among players with 3,000 or more plate appearances, his on-base percentage is tied for 131st.

OK, well, what about those hits? Well, as I mentioned, 81% of his hits are singles. Even among those relatively light-hitting players, that's really high.

Here is the singles percentage for some players you might consider light-hitting greats:

-- Ichiro, 81%

-- Tony Gwynn, 76%

-- Pete Rose, 76%

-- George Sisler, 75%

-- Wade Boggs, 75%

-- Ty Cobb, 73%

Ichiro's singles percentage is higher than Ozzie Smith's. It's higher than Jason Kendall's (yes it is). It's higher than Luis Aparicio, Bert Campaneris, Bill Buckner and Kenny Lofton. It's not the all-time mark -- other very good hitters like Richie Ashburn and Stuffy McInnis and Lloyd Waner have a higher singles percentage. But in fact, those are probably the ONLY three good hitters who have a higher singles percentage -- maybe Maury Wills, depending on how good a hitter you think he was.

So, what's wrong with a single? Nothing. But it ain't a double. Ichiro's .430 slugging percentage is certainly low for a .331 hitter, especially in today's big-hitting era. Jef Cirillo slugged .430. Hal Morris slugged .433.

So, mainly what Ichiro gives you are lots of singles -- line drives, hard grounders up the middle, bloops, bleeders through the infield, high-choppers. Are these aesthetically pleasing? Absolutely. Are these valuable? You bet. Are these more valuable than walks? Yes, of course, well, somewhat. But do a barrage of singles without many walks put Ichiro in the luxury line of hitters with Albert Pujols or Miguel Cabrera or Josh Hamilton or Robinson Cano or those sorts of guys.

I'd have to say no.

And the numbers would say no even more forcefully. This year, Ichiro does not rank in the Top 50 in batting runs according to Fangraphs.

In 2009, Ichiro ranked 36th.

In 2008, he did not rank in the Top 50.

In 2007, he ranked 31st.

In 2006, he did not rank in the Top 50.

in 2005, he did not rank in the Top 50

IN 2004, he ranked 20th.

And so on. His career OPS+ is 117, which ties him for 367th all-time and ranks lower than, among others, Mickey Tettleton, who hit 90 points lower.

I hear from people in and out of baseball all the time that Ichiro could be a different kind of hitter if he wanted. He could take some points of the average and hit with more power. He could muscle up and hit 25 homers a year. He could attack pitchers differently and draw 100 walks a season. Like I said at the top I have no idea if this is true.

What I do think is that Ichiro Suzuki is one of most dazzling and unforgettable hitters I've ever seen. I get a jolt every time I see him step to the plate. And of course here we're only talking about his hitting -- he's an amazing base stealer and base runner; he's an awesome outfielder with a terrific arm. I love watching Ichiro Suzuki play baseball. He's a first ballot Hall of Famer, no doubt in my mind.

Still, as we try to look honestly at his career, we are left with two questions and two seemingly conflicting answers:

1. Is Ichiro Suzuki one of the greatest hitters in baseball history? Absolutely.

2. Is Ichiro Suzuki one of the greatest offensive forces in baseball history? No, probably not.

43 comments:

  1. So, as a Yankees fan, how is this article suppose to make me feel about AJ Burnett?

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  2. Circle Me Adrian Beltre

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  3. As an avid Mariners fan for years and years, I've always been a bit annoyed by Ichiro for exactly this reason. He seems to go out to get his singles, then just coast. One can only imagine what gifts he has to be able to hit like that and defend like that without even trying that much.

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  4. For another comparison:

    Since Ichiro has come into the league, he's come to the plate more than anyone else in baseball. It's not really close--in second place is Derek Jeter, who has about 350 fewer plate appearances than Ichiro in that stretch. And over that same ten-year span, Ichiro ranks 37th in Baseball-Reference's Batting Wins--just behind Jeter, and just ahead of Jeff Kent. Who, of course, retired two years ago.

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  5. I think Ichiro is in the absolute perfect era. He stands out and represents a style of baseball that brings a different kind of excitement. He'd be the best at what he does no matter the time, but I think it's easier to appreciate him now.

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  6. I think you do a disservice to Ichiro in suggesting that the singles are only "somewhat" more valuable than a walk. A single is significantly better than a walk in that it has the ability to advance a runner more than one base.

    Ichiro's a great hitter, and a hell of a lot of fun to watch. He's not the greatest offensive force of his era or anything, but he's very good, and when you start adding in his other abilities (stolen bases, defense) he's incredibly valuable.

    interesting article. I especially enjoyed the Pete Rose aside. I hope people keep remembering stuff like this about Pete every time people start to feel a little sorry for him again.

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  7. "He seems to go out to get his singles, then just coast. One can only imagine what gifts he has to be able to hit like that and defend like that without even trying that much."

    Huh? The guy is 5'9" and weighs less than most American teenagers. He has a pitcher's arm in the outfield, plays outstanding defense, hustles and scraps for every infield hit, steals bases smartly and copiously, and is generally a great baserunner. What the hell else do you want him to do? To me, he's the perfect example of someone who's absolutely maximizing his talent.

    He's an all-time great pure hitter, but not one of the great offensive forces in the game. No contradiction there. He also milks value out of every other aspect of the game--I mentioned some of those above, but let's not forget his durability--and is therefore one of the top overall players of his time. Again, no contradiction.

    He's not Barry Bonds or Babe Ruth, but he's well above Lou Brock and the lesser Waner, even in just his US years. A clear Hall of Famer.

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  8. you seem to forget how valuable his stolen bases are, especially considering how successful a base stealer he is. A single followed by a stolen base is just as valuable for a leadoff hitter as a double. his .431 slugging is also better than henderson's .419. not to mention how ridiculous a fielder he is.

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  9. Rickey also walked 10% more often than Ichiro. His OBP was 25 points higher. He was also a great fielder (although Ichiro definitely has him beat in this regard). Rickey's career wOBA, including his last four awful seasons, is 31 points higher than Ichiro's. Rickey also has 64 more wins above replacement (according to FanGraphs -- the margin is actually wider at Baseball-Reference) than Ichiro.

    So yes, Ichiro is fantastic, and we are all lucky to watch him play the game. Joe's argument, as I understand it, is that while Ichiro is (or should be) a Hall of Fame lock, he is not one of the five or ten best position players to ever play the game.

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  10. On the other hand, I can make a point that walks can be more valuable than singles in that they drive up a pitcher's pitch count.

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  11. One fact about Ichiro the hitter that many overlook is not jsut that most of hits are singles but that a significantly high % of them are infield hits. He has led the league in infield hits every season but one and most years he leads by a lot. A single is more valuable than a walk but not if it's an infield single.

    Ichiro succeeds because he is a complete anomaly in the history of the game - there literally has never been a player like him with his blend of bat control, speed, and defense.

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  12. The late, great Jim Murray wrote this classic column about Nolan Ryan's rarest achievement -- a complete-game no-walker. Enjoy.

    http://ko-kr.connect.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=158638374147758

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  13. I'm glad Anonymous pointed out the infield hits. An infield hit is no better than a walk, and the infield hitting style leads to a lot of fielders choices and GIDP. So far Ichiro has been fast enough out of the batters box, and has been able to beat out his infield hits and beat out the GIDP often enough to make this approach worthwhile, but sooner or later he will lose a step with age, and then it won't be pretty.

    He may change his approach once he slows down in order to counterbalance his diminishing speed, but its pretty rare for a player to redefine his approach this late in his career and remain successful. We'll see.

    Every season I keep betting on him to finally break down, but no sign of it yet. What a cool player

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  14. "An infield hit is no better than a walk"

    With a non-forced runner at third, an infield hit has a better chance to plate that runner, while a walk has a zero chance (excluding a WP or PB that occurs with ball four).

    So an infield hit is slightly better in that regard.

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  15. Would the opposite of Ichiro! be a Three-True-Outcome, No-Field guy? I nominate Adam Dunn, who also debuted in 2001, although in the middle of the season.

    For the past 10 years, Dunn has been more valuable at the plate, but with 1200 less PA -- due to that late start in 2001, and Ichiro! bats lead off with rarely a day off. Meanwhile, Ichiro! easily beats him on the bases and in the field.

    The result is ~55 WAR for Ichiro! and only ~33 WAR for Dunn.

    I would gladly take both on my team, batting them first and second. Or perhaps fourth and fifth. I have not decided.

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  16. You could say the same things about Tony Gwynn (though apparently Ichiro is even more of an anomaly, which yes I find quite interestingly surprising [btw, "interestingly surprising" needs it's own JoeWord... it's such a useful thing to say, but it's so cumbersome to spit out]). But in any case, I think the Hall of Fame has a place for guys like them. If you're the best in a generation at something... especially something as core to the game as hitting the d@mn ball... I think you're a Hall of Famer, even if your WAR or VORP or OPS+ isn't that impressive.

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  17. with respect to a Pete Rose comparison, it is instructive to see what each player did between ages 27-36.

    Games, Pete 1587, Ichiro 1580 thru 9/25 (with 8 games on Seattle's schedule).
    Hits, Pete 2067, Ichiro 2232+.
    Plate appearances, Pete 7360, Ichiro 7281+.
    Times on base, Pete 2871, Ichiro 2735+.
    Total bases, Pete 2873, Ichiro 2902+.
    Stolen bases minus times caught, Pete 25, Ichiro 294.

    They have remarkably different public personalities. They can (could) both do many other important baseball things well besides hit. IMO, they had remarkably similar overall value as players.

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  18. I see Mark Reynolds did not play on Saturday, 9/25.

    I guess now that Arizona has set the all-time record for team strikeouts (1444 and counting), they decided to rest him.

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  19. Another point about Ichiro's walks - 1/3 of them are intentional walks. Those have added .014 to his OBP! I understand not wanting to face him with a runner on 3rd and less than two out, but I wonder if the anemic lineups he has played in for much of his career (seemingly) has helped drive that total up. Subtract the IBB and his career OBP is .362 (which is still good, of course).

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  20. The comparisons between Ichiro and Ryan are sound--two amazing players and oughta-be first-ballot HOFers who were insanely good at a handful of important skills but lacking in others. But while Ichiro seems to be valued appropriately by both serious and casual followers of the game, many a casual fan would rank Ryan as one of the best pitchers of all time.

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  21. I would also like to know what percentage of Ichiro's hits are INFIELD singles, which really aren't better than walks.

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  22. "I think you do a disservice to Ichiro in suggesting that the singles are only "somewhat" more valuable than a walk. A single is significantly better than a walk in that it has the ability to advance a runner more than one base."

    This isn't really much of an argument. He's a leadoff hitter. 65.3% of his career PA have come with the bases empty. Even middle of the order hitters have nobody on base about half the time they come up. Also, 28.4% of his career singles have been infield hits. Not a lot of runners going first to third on those.

    A high batting average with a lot of walks is more valuable than an identical high batting average with almost no walks.

    If he were to walk 50% more than he has in his career but still hit for the same exact average, he'd have lost only 77 hits in his career. But he'd gain 151 more times on base. His OBP would be .397 instead of .376, which is significantly better.

    If he were to hit for the same batting average but walk twice as often as he has, he'd still only have two 100-walk seasons. But his OBP would be .418 instead of .376. And he'd still be averaging 208 hits per season. There's no way around it. Those walks would make him far more valuable.

    --

    "his .431 slugging is also better than henderson's .419."

    That's not really saying much because it represents Rickey's career total and he had a long decline. Rickey had years where he slugged .577, .516, .497, .474, .469, .466, .458and .457. From 1983-1993, he had a .461 SLG. He batted .291 during that time, which means his SLG was 171 points higher than his BA (not to mention a .409 OBP and a 144 OPS+).

    Now compare that to Ichiro, who has had 3 years with a SLG over .450 (compared to Rickey's 8 years) and a career high of .465, which Rickey bested six times, and basically averaged for over a decade. Ichiro's career SLG is also just 99 points higher than his batting average. In individual seasons, his SLG has ranged from 72 (this year) to 136 points higher than his BA. Again, Rickey had a SLG 171 points higher than his BA over an 11 year period. There's really no comparison.

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  23. Totally off the subject, but... Ichiro throwing out Terrence Long in 2001 is still just AWESOME.

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  24. Sounds like picking gnatshit outta pepper. Look, as much as you statborgs want everyone to be Darrell Evans or Jimmy Wynn, that's just NOT gonna happen. Not Everyone is going to walk 300 times a year, okay? I know the kneejerk bent here is to under-rate someone like Ichiro or Vlad or Rose who didn't walk like Wade Boggs, and then downplay everything else they do besides.

    You don't want Ichiro? Tell ya what, there are gobs of teams out there that would kill to have him leading off.

    Be serious-you think this guy should try for 80 walks or 20 homer seasons? what for? what makes you think he could? Didn't Willie Wilson try that back when? and where did that get him, exactly? Right.

    Ichiro is great at what he does. Stop complaining. Sheesh.

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  25. Imagine for a moment that there was a player who had a particular way of maximizing his value. And in order to do so, he had to convince himself that that particular way of playing was in fact more valuable than other ways of playing, even though that was demonstrably untrue. And that player did so convince himself and so became the best player he could be, and in the end a pretty darn good player. While other players listened to their coaches who tried to tinker with their style of play, and ended up in a heap with other middling players.

    That, to me, is both Ryan and Ichiro, though Ichiro convinced himself to improve a larger set of skills (all of Ryan's peripherals stink and all of Ichiro's are superb). If Ryan came up today, some pitching coach in the Mets organization would tell him to cut his velocity to improve his control and he'd probably hurt his arm doing it. If Ichiro had started in the minors, some roving hitting instructor in the Mariners organization would have convinced him to swing less often and pull the ball more and he'd never have made the major leagues.

    There is no question in my mind--and I saw his first game, the game where he beat Sisler's record and about a hundred others in person and listened to or watched nearly all the rest--that Ichiro's style of play is both a conscious choice based on his own perception of the one best way to play baseball, and that that particular style does in fact maximize Ichiro's skills. The question he asks of every pitch is, "how can I put it into play fair and reach base with that?", which is a different question than Rickey Henderson asked, or Edgar Martinez, or Barry Bonds.

    Comparing Rickey's career records to Ichiro is silly. Rickey is indeed the greatest leadoff man ever, and Ichiro is not close to that. Rickey had a very long career, and his peak was one of the greatest peaks ever. His power game and his on base game exceeded Ichiro's by a lot, although Ichiro understands the comparative value of a stolen base and a caught stealing far better than Rickey did and is a significantly better fielder (Rickey played left field nearly his whole career, too).

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  26. i love ichiro discussions.

    amazing how many people think that you can hit like you always do but somehow walk more/hit more homers etc

    baseball Organizations are like skools - they want everyone to do the same thing as everyone else - meaning that people who have a specific skill set that COULD be successful which is not what the AVERAGE is - they get trouble

    i think about ted williams who took endless $htt for taking walks and refusing to put the ball in play on a pitch out of the zone - which would most likely be an out (and what's the point of THAT?) - because he was NOT doing what people of the time thought was The Right Way To Play The Game

    and ichiro is the modern (sort of) example of a guy who doesn't play the game the Proper Way - won't just pull the ball, aim for a lower average, a few less hits, more walks, more power. it IS possible, you know, that he CAN'T be successful with what he has trying to do it THAT way.

    as my granma always said, there's moren one way to skin a cat (don't ask me why people be skinnin cats, but i digress...)

    even if ichiro never played a day in japan, he is STILL a hall of FAMER. he has 10 straight years of excellence as a leadoff hitter and has been very VERY successful at what HE does. grousing that he is no RICKEY!! is as silly as grousing that paul molitor is no babe ruth

    one more time - it is the hall of FAME, not the hall according to WAR(s)/WARP/VORP/OPS+ or some other imaginary number - but FAME, and there is no doubt that ichiro (like frank sinatra sez) he did it myyyyyyyyyyyy way.

    people are often very, uh, opposed to people who do things differently than they personally think things should be done AND SUCCEED - they resent the heck out of it - and this is just as true for stat geeks as the Mainstream Media Cave Dwellers they complain about...

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  27. I didn't see anyone grouse that he was no Rickey or that he wasn't good at what he did or get the most out of his ability or that he should be able to walk 120 times per year without it affecting his batting average or style of play.

    All this guy was doing was pointing out that the comparison to Rickey's slugging percentage was illogical and that a batter with a higher on-base percentage would be more valuable.

    Doesn't mean Ichiro's not a fun player to watch and doesn't mean that he's not really good at the things he does do well. It doesn't mean he's not a valuable player. It just means that many people overrate his value.

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  28. this whole argument Joe addresses way up above in the first place. Reminds me of someone (someone) saying to the effect of "I can't tell you if Ichiro could be better at being Ricky than Ricky was". Comparing their values as a whole is legitimate, but as breadbaker said - how can you know that Ichiro isn't the best Ichiro there could be? Same with Nolan Ryan.

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  29. I frankly don't know of anyone who has ranked Nolan Ryan as one of the all-time elite pitchers and Ichiro as one of the all-time elite hitters, at least anyone with any brains at all about baseball. Ryan doesn't enter the discussion beside Walter Johnson, Christy Mathewson, Lefty Grove, Bob Feller, Koufax, Gibson, Seaver, Clemens, Maddux, Pedro, etc. Just like Ichiro doesn't enter the discussion beside Cobb, Ruth, Gehrig, Musial, Williams, Mays, Aaron, Bonds, Pujols, etc.
    Ryan was the greatest strikeout pitcher of all time. That's why he's in the Hall of Fame, and should be.
    Ichiro is the greatest singles hitter of all time. That's why he will be in the Hall of Fame.
    You don't penalize a player because they do one thing exceptionally well.

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  30. Per Fangraphs, Ichiro has 386 infield hits in his career against 1815 singles. He has 48 infield hits this year so far - Hunter Pence is 2nd with 27. That is pretty typical of every year of Ichiro's career (Ichiro / 2nd place):
    2009 - 50 / 29 (Bourn)
    2008 - 40 / 40 (tied for 1st - Pence)
    2007 - 44 / 36 (CastillO)
    2006 - 41 / 40 (Castillo)
    2005 - 31 (actually 3rd this year) / 37 Taveras & 35 Damon
    2004 - 57 / 38 (castillo)
    2003 - 34 (2nd) / 37 (Castillo )
    2002 - 41 / 30 (Castillo)
    2001 - data not available

    RE: Henderson - you also have to account for era nd ballpark between those 2. Ichiro has played in a bad ballpark but so did Rickey for much of his career. Meanwhile Rickey played in a bad era for slugging. Rickey's SLG% was .419 against a league average (park adjusted) of .401. Ichiro's is .430 against .418. Pretty comparable and as noted, Ichiro hasn't had a decline phase yet - much like Pete Rose, Rickey's power was gone at the end of his career even though he could still get on base.

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  31. Circle me Gary Sheffield could get 200 hits every year if he only wanted to hit singles.

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  32. It's always bothered me that Suzuki gets to wear his first name on the back of his jersey.

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  33. Thank you for the post. Great information and stats!

    Ichiro is a great hitter and he serves a purpose. Baseball is a team sport. He's getting his job done.

    I don't understand why people want him to do more. I would urge the rest of the Mariner hitters to do more.

    Chone Figgins may walk a few more times than Ichiro but he also strikes out a bunch more.

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  34. In light of David in Toledo's comparison, the overall value as a ballplayer, in my opinion, between the two is summed up in this:

    Pete Rose: 7 Division Championships, 6 Pennants, 3 World Series Championships

    Ichiro Suzuki: 1 Division Championship

    Pete Rose: 24 seasons played, 21 winning, 3 losing (no losing seasons between 1971 & 1984). 8 winning, 2 losing in first 10 seasons

    Ichiro Suzuki: 5 winning seasons, 5 losing seasons in first 10 seasons

    Pete Rose, as a ballplayer alone, did what it took to succeed as a teammate first, then personally. He made his teams better, especially as a lead-off hitter and competitor.

    Without wins Pete is only, as Whitey Ford derisively sneered, a charlie hustle. With wins Pete is Charlie Hustle.

    And, Pete wins the worst haircut debate, hands-down.

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  35. Joe's point has been driven home to me forcefully this year. Our fantasy league is points-based (points for TB, R, RBI, BB, SB as well as neg. pts for K, CS). Ichiro would seem to be well set-up for this kind of system and in fact there are several non-sluggers such as Denard Span in the top 25 OF. Ichiro ranks 30th, right between Ibanez & Angel Pagan, and 5th on my own team behind Holliday, McCutchen, Span, and Torii. In other words, not really good enough to start most days.

    Any other Hall of Fame candidates you'd say that about, under whatever scoring system?

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  36. I just don't get why pitchers throw this guy ANYTHING to hit. I said this a couple months ago on HBT when they were saying Ichiro was heading towards his worst year. I too was stunned to find his career BA was .331 and his OBP was .376. This, while a guy like Rickey Henderson had a .279 BA and a .401. Or Wade Boggs, a FAR SUPERIOR player to Ichiro, with a .328 BA and .415 OBP. When a guy walks once every 16 PAs, why would ANY pitcher give him ANYTHING to hit???

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  37. Anonymous 1:58PM 9/26 wrote:

    "I frankly don't know of anyone who has ranked Nolan Ryan as one of the all-time elite pitchers"

    Really? Ever hear of the MLB All-Century Team? Ryan was voted the best pitcher of the CENTURY, ahead of Koufax, Young, Clemens, Gibson, Walter Johnson, Spahn, Mathewson, and Grove (in that order).

    http://tinyurl.com/27on67s

    The only ranking evaluation list Ryan belongs at or near the top of is most over-rated.

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  38. Whaaaat?

    Ichiro's value is less than Pete Rose because Rose was on more winning teams? Huh? I'm supposed to devalue Ichiro because his teammates are bad at baseball, and value Rose more because he played in a lineup with Foster, Perez, Bench, and Morgan?

    I would sooner value Rose highly because he DID know how to draw a walk (70+ eight separate seasons), had gap power (40+ doubles seven times), and was defensively versatile (if not as skilled as Ichiro). I'd rather value him for his own 1973 MVP, not for his teammates' FIVE MVP awards from 1970-1977.

    Ichiro's teammates finished in the top five twice during his MLB career: third in '00 and third again in '01. Rose had teammates finish in the top five twice in four different seasons - and that's just in those eight years I checked above. Cincinnati Reds finished 1-4-5 and 1-2-4 in '75 and '76 alone. Add in top-ten finishes and Ichiro's teammates only add a tenth-place finish in '03 (Bret Boone). Basically the Mariners have surrounded the guy with tumbleweeds and cardboard cutouts for the past seven seasons (and he's finished top-ten in the MVP three times during that time, so it's not like he gave up on playing well).

    I don't think Ichiro's the greatest offensive machine ever, but truthully, neither was Charlie Hustle.

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  39. @lisa gray

    Odd that I haven't read one comment suggesting that Ichiro was not a hall of famer.

    But thanks for the stat geeks line. Always helpful.

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  40. I almost wonder if in 50 years they'll be making fun of us for thinking Ichiro existed.

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  41. Don't sell Ichiro short! He had 2 more hits in 2004 (262 total). I love your writing, loved the article

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  42. Re: Joe's statement that Ichiro is not a "luxury line" hitter like Pujols, Cabrera, Hamilton and Cano

    Ichiro: .354 wOBA, 121 wRC
    Cano: .355 wOBA, 119 wRC

    Cano walks even less than Ichiro, but gets more extra base hits than Ichiro and is a crappy baserunner for an athletic reasonably fast guy.
    Looking at career averages Ichiro is every bit the offensive force that Robinson Cano is and over 10 years of very steady reliable production.

    No argument on the other three. Cano was just a very strange choice as he has hit like a top 25 hitter in baseball only once in his career. I wouldn't rush to pencil him in for that kind of production next year.

    The fact that Nolan Ryan gave up a ton of runs and baserunners speaks directly to his ultimate value. Ryan is very good and very overrated because he was exciting to watch.

    Describing Ichiro's offense as good but not great without mentioning his baserunning and defense suggests that Ichiro is less valuable than he really is. Any discussion of Ichiro's place in history has to mention the fact that he is one of the all-time great defensive rightfielders of all time (career UZR/150: +12.5) and a very good centerfielder when he's played there (UZR/150: +7.0). He has no weaknesses on the field. He takes great routes, has very good speed even at 36, and has a canon for an arm.

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  43. Is Ichiro "clairvoyant"? If not, how can he have more hits year by year than ANY OTHER hitter in the MLB? Is it luck? game by game year by year? natural ability? instinct? or intelligence? Behind that quiet demeanor is a VERY, VERY smart man. This is a man that possesses natural ability, instinct & intelligence. He quietly goes about his business doing EXACTLY what he is being paid to do, he knows the "concept" of a TEAM. Unlike the modern day player whos philosphy is "everyman for himself", get me my millions and move on to the highest paying team, Mr. Ichiro has honor, loyalty and dignity. (Probably a very forgein concept in this day and age).

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