I came across a fascinating baseball trend the other day -- or non-baseball trend, I guess -- and it's one of the more surprising things I have seen since I have been tinkering with baseball. I'm pretty sure there have been studies done on this before, but I had never seen them, and so I was blown away with my FTOD -- Faux Thrill Of Discovery.*
*I have a friend who is convinced -- CONVINCED -- that he invented the "throw the ball off the stoop" game. I have told him a hundred times that the game was invented many years before he was born, but he refuses to believe it, he is convinced that one day when he was very young (long before he could have heard of such a game) he was looking at the stairs and thinking, "You know, if one player throw a ball off the stairs, and another player was the fielder..." In a way he DID invent it thought it had been invented a half million times before. That's FTOD.
So, here's how it happened: I was looking over the American League rookie of the year match-up, and I was kind of studying Neftali Feliz's season. Feliz had 40 saves, an .880 WHIP, a 71-18 strikeout-to-walk ratio, it was quite a year. And then I saw that the Rangers went 73-6 when they had a lead going into the ninth inning, an impressive .924 winning percentage.
Only ... is that impressive? As I thought about it a bit more, I guessed it probably wasn't impressive. And I was right. That .924 winning percentage with a lead going into the ninth is actually below league average -- quite a bit below league average in fact. The league average of games won with a team going into the ninth with a lead was 95.5%.
Top six winning percentages with leads entering the ninth inning:
1. Tampa Bay .988 (81-1)
2. San Diego .987 (77-1)
3. St. Louis .987 (74-1)
4. Oakland .986 (73-1)
5. Detroit .986 (70-1)
6. Kansas City .981 (53-1)
Bottom six winning percentages with leads entering the ninth inning:
30. Baltimore .869 (53-8)
29. Los Angeles .908 (69-7)
28. Milwaukee .914 (64-6)
27. Arizona .923 (60-5)
26. Texas .924 (73-6)
25. Colorado and Houston .932 (69-5)
Feliz was not responsible for all those blown leads, by the way. But my point had shifted. Now, I wasn't interesting so much in Feliz; I was interested in something else. We all know that the role of the closer has evolved over the last 40 or so years. Even the name has evolved -- we really used to call them "firemen," which was awesome. They used to come out to the mound on those cool little bullpen cars, which was awesome. They used to have mustaches and stomp around on the mound like pro wresters and have nicknames like "Goose" and "The Inspector" and "Sparky" and "The Mad Hungarian" and "Quiz" and "Bedrock" and "The Terminator" -- all of which was awesome. Man the closer role used to be so much more awesome than they are now.
But the point is that the closer has evolved, his role has crystallized, his salary has gone up, his importance in the game has obviously increased exponentially. And so I wondered just how much more often teams are winning now when they lead going into the ninth than they did before the closer became such a part of things.
You may already know the answer to this. But if you don't, I'd like you to take a guess how much more often teams with close out ninth inning leads than they did 10 years ago, 25 years ago, 50 years ago.
I can tell you now the answer shocked the heck out of me. I conservatively estimated that teams win about 5% more often now with ninth inning leads than they did before the closer really came into the vogue. I suspected it was a conservative estimate but that was my guess anyway. Here's why: One of the things that always surprises me about baseball is how little any one thing affects the percentages of the game.
That is to say: There are charts that suggest how you arrange a lineup will have very little effect on how many runs your team scores in the long run. There are formulas that suggest that stolen bases -- once you incorporate the caught stealing -- will have a surprisingly small impact on the game. One of the biggest beefs people have with stats like Wins Above Replacement and some of the more advanced defensive stats is that they always seem to come out low, they always seem not only to disprove big swings (like the idea that Ozzie Smith saved 100 runs a year with his defense or that a single great player was worth 25 extra wins) but they actually MAKE FUN of those big numbers. Baseball in the long view is stunningly consistent and predictable and no one thing or one person shifts it much.
So, I guessed that all the advances -- the creation of the bullpen as weapon, the evolution of the closer, the Mariano Rivera cutter, all of it -- only made teams about 5% more likely to win games in 2010 than in, say, 1952.
I was wrong.
The truth is that all the bullpen advances have had ABSOLUTELY ZERO EFFECT on how much more often teams win games they're leading in the ninth inning. Zero. Nada. Zilch. The ol' bagel.
Teams won 95.5% of their ninth-inning leads in 2010. Teams won 95.5% of their ninth-inning leads in 1952.
Well, shocked the heck out of me. Well, it's not quite that simple. There have been a few anomalies, yes. For instance, in 1957, teams won only 92.7% of their ninth inning leads -- easily the lowest percentage over the last 60 years. That was a year for comebacks. And the highest percentage was in the strike year of 1981, when teams won 97.6% of their leads -- that probably would have normalized over a full schedule.
Other than that, though, the best winning percentage for ninth-inning leads is .958. It has happened four times -- 2008, 1988, 1972 and 1965. That pretty much covers the entire spectrum of bullpen use. It doesn't change. Basically, teams as a whole ALWAYS win between a touch less than 94% and a touch more than 95% of the time. This has been stunningly, almost mockingly, consistent. The game has grown, the leagues have expanded, the roles have changed, the pressure has turned up, but the numbers don't change.
Here, I'll give you another example. Most of us would agree, probably, that Mariano Rivera is the greatest closer in the history of baseball, right? I mean, we can have that argument another time, but I think it's Rivera, and you probably think it's Rivera, and since he became a closer in 1997, the Yankees have won a rather remarkable 97.3% of the time when they lead going into the ninth inning. I don't have an easy way to compare that to everyone over the same time period, but I'd bet that's the best record for any team. In 2008, the Yankees won all 77 games the led going into the ninth. Most years they lose once or twice.
So that would seem to indicate that Rivera DOES make a difference. And I think he does make a difference -- compared to other closers.
But ... consider the 1950s New York Yankees. Dominant team, of course. The bullpen was an ever shifting thing, though. One year, Ryne Duren was their main guy out of the pen, another year it was Bob Grim or Art Ditmar or Tom Morgan or Tommy Byrne or Jim Konstanty ... well, the names changed all the time. The bullpen changed all the time. Casey Stengel seemed to shift strategies every now and again, probably to keep things interesting, starters finished many more games, and anyway the game was very different then and ...
From 1951-1962, the New York Yankees won 97.3% of their ninth inning leads. If you carry it another decimal point, they actually won a slightly HIGHER percentage of their ninth inning leads than the Mariano Yankees.
Well, it shocked the heck out of me, anyway. I didn't do extremely detailed research on this because (A) The numbers for winning ninth-inning leads are not searchable as far as I know; (B) I'm not researcher. But just the little bit I did do tells me that all of this bullpen maneuvering, these end-of-game innovations, these big money closer contracts, they may make sense for individual teams, but they have had almost no visible impact on the game itself. Teams have always won a very higher percentage of their ninth inning leads, no matter what their strategy for doing so. The good teams win almost every single time.
Well, anyway, I think it's fascinating. But you may notice that the title of this blog post is about setup men. Well, here is what I came out of all this thinking -- there really isn't much a team can do with the ninth inning. Teams worry about it and fret over it and spend tons of money on it and ... it's really kind of a static thing. In 2010, the Kansas City Royals were all but unbeatable with a ninth-inning lead and they lost 95 games. In 2010, the Texas Rangers were near the bottom of the league when it came to protecting ninth inning leads, and they were in the World Series. It seems to me that there just isn't much wiggle room here. Teams, good and bad, with great closers and terrible ones, are going to win the game almost every time they lead going into the ninth inning. Sure, you want to maximize the ninth inning, but I think it's probably a lot more important to HAVE LEADS going into the ninth inning.
And thus ... the setup man. In 2010, teams won 91.7% of the time when they led going into the eighth inning. And that was the highest percentage over the last 60 years. It could have been a statistical blip. It probably WAS a statistical blip. But it seems interesting just the same. I think the setup man is becoming the new closer. I think on many teams, managers and general managers think the setup man is even more valuable than the closer for two reasons:
1. As mentioned, the ninth inning is predictable and has been going back at least to 1950. A hot closer can give you a bit of a boost, but if you are a good team you are not going to blow ninth inning leads very often.
2. Because of the save statistic and current group-think, the closer is pretty much immovable. You have to start him in the ninth inning with the three-run-or-less lead. Every now and again, a manager will go against convention, bring in the closer to finish off the eighth, or start off the ninth with a lefty-lefty match-up before bringing in the closer. But almost every time the closer is used in only one way, and that's stifling for managers.
But the setup role is not as settled, and so managers can use their setup men in many different ways. They can bring them into the game in the seventh. They can wait until runners are on base in the eighth. They can use the setup man for one out, for four outs, for six outs, when the team is in trouble in the sixth inning, it's an open canvas.
And, yes, I think some teams (like the Chicago White Sox with Matt Thornton*) are making their best relievers setup men instead of closers.
*Several people pointed this out to me a couple of months ago when I wrote that I really didn't want to see Matt Thornton pitch in the All-Star Game. I was probably a bit off in trying to make my point -- Thornton is a terrific pitcher. I really just meant I would like to see the stars pitch in the All-Star Game, I think only starters should pitch. But that's just me.
I think I would do this too -- put my best reliever as a setup man. I mean, yes, I would still love to see someone tear the whole thing down and try and create bullpen without specific roles. But I don't think that will happen anytime soon, and I don't know -- human nature being what it is -- that it would work. I think there's a chance it would not work. This isn't just about people liking to have roles. I think the way it works now, there's a clear progression for a reliever. You work the middle innings, then if you do that well you work the later innings, and if you do that well you have a shot at being a closer where the big money and fame is. I think that speaks to players ambitions. They have something to shoot for.
So, assuming that we're not yet in a place where you can go with a no-roles bullpen, I think I would make my setup man my star. Sure, you would want a good pitcher as a closer. But I think that's enough. Put someone good in that role and you will win 95-to-100% of the games you lead going into the ninth inning.*
*I've been thinking lately how utterly ludicrous it was that Dennis Eckersley won the 1992 MVP Award. Eck is a fascinating media creature -- he raced in as a first ballot Hall of Famer without anyone really thinking twice about it, and he won the 1992 Cy Young AND MVP award, the last pitcher to do that. He had 51 saves and a 1.91 ERA and an amazing 93-11 strikeout-to-walk ratio that year. No question: It was a terrific year.
But it was really about the same year Bryan Harvey had in 1991 (46 saves, 1.80 ERA, 101-17 strikeout to walk) and Harvey didn't even get a single first place Cy Young vote, much less any MVP consideration. It was not too different from the year Doug Jones had in 1992 (only 36 saves, but a 1.85 ERA, 30 more innings than Eckersley, a 93-17 strikeout to walk). And Jonesie didn't even get a third-place Cy Young vote.
To the larger point, the Oakland A's went 81-1 when leading going into the ninth. A fabulous record. But the Toronto Blue Jays went 83-1, and neither Tom Henke nor Duane Ward (who had a higher WAR than Eck, by the way) got ANY recognition or consideration at all -- neither one even made the All-Star Team. And the Kansas City Royals that year went 64-0 when leading going into the ninth, but nobody was pushing Jeff Montgomery for the MVP award.
Eckersley -- perhaps because of his amazing story as once-good starter turned into fabulous closer -- just had a way of seeming larger than life.
My feeling is: If you put in someone good -- your second or third best reliever -- into the closer role, then you will have your best pitcher to use in key situations. You will have him to secure the eighth inning, of course, but you could also use him at other crucial times. I think the game is shifting that way now. I think that's what some of the smarter teams are quietly beginning to do now. Take Boston: There's all this talk about how good a closer Daniel Bard can be for the Red Sox. But I think they might be better off with him dominating in the role he's in now and someone else, someone not as good, in the closer role. We'll keep an eye on that.
Very thought provoking Joe, but it seems like the Red Sox tried to move to this a few years back, and it just was not accepted. But you're right, it looks to be something that will develop in the future as more people inside baseball learn to get their head around it,
ReplyDeleteI have no idea what he means by the "throw the ball off the stoop" game, although I suspect I've probably played it.
ReplyDelete"But just the little bit I did do tells me that all of this bullpen maneuvering, these end-of-game innovations, these big money closer contracts, they may make sense for individual teams, but they have had almost no visible impact on the game itself."
ReplyDeleteNo visible impact on the outcome of games, maybe. But the lucky fans have been treated to an avalanche of pitching changes. So that's been fun.
I absolutely agree, Joe. I think saving your best reliever for what might be a high-leverage situation is foolish compared to using him when you know it's a high-leverage situation. I'm guessing that the higher quality of ninth inning pitching is probably being canceled out by usage patterns, which is why there's no change over time (which surprises me too).
ReplyDeleteAs far as the "fame and fortune" aspect for the player, remember how a Goose or Fingers was viewed in their day? Firemen indeed, we got a rally going but uh-oh here comes that guy. I would argue that because of when you would see them in the game they were perceived as having much more panache than closers do today. If you're usually coming in in high-leverage situations (and people know that you will) you seem much more bad-ass than a player who you know you won't see in the 6th inning, might not see at all, or might see in a ho-hum ahead-by-three-runs-in-the-ninth save.
That's a bit boring, not having an ace lurking, and also not necessarily effective at all.
That's why the Neftali Feliz "Rookie of the Year Award" was so wrong as was the Oakland kid winning it the year before.
ReplyDeleteGreat post.
Bill James wrote all about the 95% thing years ago. I'm amazed that you weren't aware of it.
ReplyDeleteI only recently read Moneyball, and for all intents and purposes this is what the A's did with Chad Bradford. Bradford was truly the ace of the pen and he was the one that Howe was instructed to bring in in high leverage situations. Koch was the nominal closer, but Bradford was the true #1. You could argue that this is what the Cubs did with Marmol before Woods left.
ReplyDeleteIt's almost like it has to be an accidental situation rather than pre-planned strategy.
I'm in the camp that wants the better relievers to pitch in the highest leverage situations. That's the role. No closers or set-up men.
ReplyDelete@Jeff: The Red Sox "closer-by-committee" from 2003 is not the same thing. What Joe describes still requires having a No. 1 guy in the bullpen, a guy who pitches in the highest-leverage situations like Bard does now. They didn't have that guy in 2003. The experiment failed because Fox, Embree, etc., just weren't that good.
ReplyDeleteI watched most of the Rays' games this year - at least 145 - and as good as Soriano performed as closer, Joaquin Benoit actually seemed more valuable. The guy put together one of the best seasons I've ever seen.
ReplyDeleteOh, and there's no way your friend invented stoop ball, because I invented it.
In less politically-correct times we called the game Indian Ball; past the fielder on the ground...single; past the fielder in the air...double; past the fielder on a fly to the sidewalk...triple; past the field on a fly to the street...home run. The rules had to be amended when the game was moved to the backyard because we kept breaking the glass, front-door blinds. Then the cellar was a triple and second level of the house a home run. The forced march added the excitement of an automatic grand slam if the ball made it to the roof.
ReplyDeleteDuring the 1982 season I was angered every time Whitey Herzog lifted Doug Bair for Bruce Sutter, who I despised only slightly more than the rest of the St. Louis Cardinals. I felt bad for Doug losing out on the glory of the save. I'm guessing he didn't feel so bad having Sutter come in after him.
I'd put Doug Bair on the Lisa Simpson Second Banana Mt. Rushmore along with John Oates, Jim Messina and Art Garfunkel.
So maybe the Reds brilliantly used Cordero as closer and Rhodes, Chapman, etc. in the more important situations (or maybe accidentally).
ReplyDeleteNo matter who pitches the 9th, teams tend to win ~95% of the time during the regular season..and yet, doesn't it seem like their impact is magnified in the postseason?
ReplyDeleteIn 2009, the postseason closers were:
Mariano Rivera
Joe Nathan
Jonathan Papelbon
Brian Fuentes
Brad Lidge
Huston Street
Jonathan Broxton
Ryan Franklin
Every one of these guys had solid years, and every single one except Rivera either lost a game or blew a save in the postseason. So of course it was Rivera's Yankees that would go on to win the World Series.
If they keep Daniel Bard in his present role as all around fireman rather than move him to the closer role, are they going to pay him the same salary as the best closers in the league? Otherwise, won't he be highly pissed that lesser relievers are making much more than him? Is he going to make less than Boston's closer, even if Bard is a better pitcher?
ReplyDeleteInteresting conundrum indeed.
My FOTD came at age four or so when I found that I could run really really fast if I bent my arms and pumped my fists up and down instead of letting them dangle where they may. Later on I found that everyone else was using this method. Had I been spied on as I careered around our back yard? And who did I see to claim my rightful reward?
ReplyDeleteEventually, by the time I was seven or eight, the truth dawned. Those other runners had figured it out without my help. It was sadder than learning the truth about Santa Claus.
The ninth inning for the team that's behind is like being down two strikes in the count. If you are against a composed, rested closer who is healthy, you always have very little chance of coming back, even if they aren't, you still have the psychological hindrance to get over of only 3 outs left to use. Your run-scoring strategies are limited because the outs are more precious. Even if the setup man is used in a high-leverage situation, the offensive team knows they may be able to work their lineup into getting that guy into a bad situation. The closer faces everyone to the end, not just the righty/righty, lefty/lefty matchups. The thing is, everyone knows that the setup guy is not the closer, he might have better stuff, but in most cases he is vulnerable in some way. Even if he isn't in the particular instance you are facing, you still only have three more outs after his inning if you don't score, because unless your opponent scores you get a shot at a different pitcher. In other words, I'm pretty sure managers will work the matchups and in many cases HOPE for the closer to come in, because that's the better match up. It's just as easy to believe that your best reliever as closer will not stand up to constant eighth inning usage while your fourth best guy blows the game in the ninth and your team is demoralized. Because it all flows from that. You have a lefty specialist, a righty specialist, a set up guy, and the closer. So who loses the game and when? These are still people pitching and hitting. Confidence plays a role. It might be as fleeting as pitch to pitch, but it's there.
ReplyDeleteI've never quite understood the Eck thing either, and why his HOF case seemed so easy for so many of the writers.
ReplyDeleteHe had a great five year stretch as a closer ('88-'92) but wasn't so great after that. Why did so many writers think that his good (but clearly non-HOF) starting pitcher years some how helped his HOF case? I always thought that the opposite should be true.
I'm not saying he doesn't belong. I just thought it was a much closer call than the writers did.
Great thing to think about, others have mentioned this topic has been discussed previously, best I know of was in "The Book" talking about using your best reliever in "high leverage" situations, which do not always come at the end of the game.
ReplyDeleteInteresting. But are there countervailing variables that the emergence of the modern closer negates?
ReplyDeleteMarmol and Borowski
ReplyDeletethe game should absolutely shift, to where the 5-6 relievers make most of the money and the starters (except the aces) make less.
ReplyDeletewho's more valuable, a guy who throws an inning or 2 every day or a guy who goes 5-6 innings (you hope) every 5th day?
but much like the overhauling of the bullpen, I doubt anyone will have the guts to try it.
John in CUO wrote: "Every one of these guys had solid years, and every single one except Rivera either lost a game or blew a save in the postseason. So of course it was Rivera's Yankees that would go on to win the World Series."
ReplyDeleteBut remember, Rivera already blew the entire World Series when Luis Gonzalez and the D'backs kicked his ass. So he better close out about 94 World Series in a row or he becomes a "below average" World Series closer.
Maybe even a "choker."
Don't get me wrong, I think he's great one, a Hall of Famer. He does his job well, but ultimately he's just doing his job.
In light of the 95% success rate in the 9th inning, it's kind of silly to make Rivera out to be the hero, isn't it? But just try to convince any Yankees fan of that.
Correction. I should have written that Rivera needs to close 19 World Series in a row to avoid being "below average" (19 wins out of 20 = 95%). I apologize for my hyperbole (fanbole), but the point is the same.
ReplyDeleteEckersly was larger than life- so much so that he (and Larussa) basically created the one inning closer and changed the game forever.
ReplyDeleteWith the title "closer" and the save stat, MLB teams limited the role and effectiveness of their most valuable relievers while exponentially increasing their salaries.
Some very good relievers "could not handle the stress" of the closer role, but were very effective at coming in to put out fires in earlier innings after leaving that role. I think that this is partially due to the fact that some relievers actually seem less effective with a clean inning. They need what is actually the more stressful situation of coming in with someone on base, they feed off that adrenaline to start their outing.
As far as the value of a great set up man/fireman, we need look no further than Rivera himself. Rivera's most valuable season, by War or nearly any other metric, was 1996, when he was the set up man for John Wetteland on the first Yankee World Champion in many years. This team was an average run scoring team with below average power, not like the juggernaut offenses that came later, and Rivera may have been their MVP. Pettite also had a claim, but certainly no offensive player.
I would also be interested to know the winning percentages after the 6th, 7th or 8th innings and whether those changed over the years.
Here's an interesting one from last year:
ReplyDeleteCloser: 59 IP, 37 SV, 1.39 WHIP, 3.51 ERA (119 ERA+), 1.93 K:BB, 0.8 WAR
Set-up: 61.1 IP, 26 Holds, 0.99 WHIP, 2.64 ERA (158 ERA+), 4.43 K:BB, 1.2 WAR (Highest among RP on team).
The team was only 74-6 (.925) when leading going into the 9th (Though Joe didn't include them in his bottom 5, so something's amiss).
The team's the Toronto Blue Jays, the closer is Kevin Gregg, and the setup is Scott Downs, arguably the best RP on the market. Soriano and Rivera fans may take umbrage, but the latter isn't really on the market, and even if Soriano is better, the value bet is in Downs' camp.
What's really interesting is that Gregg may have been the third best reliever on the team last year. Jason Frasor's numbers:
63.2 IP, 14 Holds, 1.38 WHIP, 3.68 ERA (118 ERA+, 2.4 K:BB, 0.9 WAR.
To throw another wrench in the analysis, though, Jason Frasor had a really tough time in the limited save opportunities he was given, maybe leading credence to Joe's thoughts about there being something to the role a pitcher sees himself in.
Frasor in save opportunities: 7 IP, 7.71ERA, 2.28 WHIP, 1.8 K:BB
Frasor in non-save opportunities: 56.2 IP, 3.17 ERA, 1.27WHIP, 2.54 K:BB
What this all means? I don't know. I do know Downs and Frasor both made Type A status and Gregg only achieved Type B.
Joe you may want to check out this column Jim Caple wrote a couple years ago, although I'm sure you've read it already.
ReplyDeletehttp://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=caple/080805
I had the luck this past summer of going to see an NYT sportswriter interview Randy Levine and Brian Cashman about the Yankees. At the Q&A period I stood up and paraphrased Caple's column for Cashman and asked him why they didn't put Rivera in the game at the most crucial moment (say 7th inning up by 1 with runners on 2nd and 3rd). Cashman responded to me that although I may have the stats to back up my theory, he still felt that there is something different about the last 3 outs of a baseball game. It's a kind of romanticized notion that only men with nerves of steel can close out a game. Just my thoughts, but thanks for the blog post and I love your stuff. Keep it coming.
Shhhh. That's what closers with reputations-that-precede-them are whispering to Joe. Don't blow our cover! We're valuable! We make a huge difference! We deserve our paychecks for pitching in 60-70 innings a year and usually throwing in non-stressful situations (the good ol' get 3 outs to close out a 7-4 win).
ReplyDeleteShut-down closers do not matter as much during the regular season but they do help in short-series playoffs ... that's where their value often lies. But it's funny to see crappy teams overpay relievers (too much focus on "saves" totals) in line with the status quo. And yes, it's frustrating to see Eck cruise into the HOF (overrated starting career + overrated relief career).
In 2009, the postseason closers were:
ReplyDeleteMariano Rivera
Joe Nathan
Jonathan Papelbon
Brian Fuentes
Brad Lidge
Huston Street
Jonathan Broxton
Ryan Franklin
Every one of these guys had solid years, and every single one except Rivera either lost a game or blew a save in the postseason.
Lidge did NOT have a solid regular season in 2009. He did in '08 and (most of) '10.
Dodger300, I don't think what Joe writes here applies to Rivera's postseason value, where he has 0.71 ERA over the course of 139 2/3 inning. With him averaging just under 1.5 innings in the postseason, many of his saves have been more than an inning, including a number that were a full 2 innings. Also, anecdotally I can tell you that since 1996, the Yankees have won a relatively significant number of games in which they trailed from the 8th inning on, while losing only a handful in similar fashion.
ReplyDeleteStengel getting such great results from his bullpen doesn't surprise me. But one thing to notice is that he was often using his ace pitchers as closers - his ace starters!
ReplyDeleteIn 1952, Allie Reynolds went 20-8, and led the AL in ERA at 2.06. He made 29 starts with 24 CG, and six relief appearances. In those six relief appearances, he had six saves. The year before, he went 17-8 in 26 starts - and had seven saves.
In 1953, he had 15 starts, 26 relief appearences, and went 13-7 with 13 saves.
So Stengel's usage was unlike any manager's now. He wasn't bringing in his best reliever in key situations - he was bringing in his best pitcher, even if he was nominally his ace starter...
So, the top 6 teams in 9th inning w/lead win % had 1/6 make the playoffs. The bottom 6 had 1/6 make the playoffs. That means the middle 18 had 6/18 = 1/3 make the playoffs. Horray for mediocracy.
ReplyDeleteI believe that most managers misuse their bullpens, However... If you look at firemen, especially Gossage and Sutter, you will see that there was a big problem of overuse. The closer paradigm came into being in large part to have the managers force themselves to restrict games and especially innings. I think there is something to be said in favor of restricted roles where a pitcher knows when he is likely to enter the game and can systematize his preparation. Say it is the 7th inning in a tied game; do you start the inning with your fireman? I highly doubt it. Do you even start warming him up? Even that seems unlikely. They get 2 on with 1 out. If you start warming him now there will be at least 2 PA's before he will be ready to go in. Those 2 PA's could put you down by 4, or end the inning. There is a cost every time the pitcher warms up. It wouldn't surprise me if warming a pitcher up and not using would have an effect like pitching him 2/3 of an inning from his limited supply of available innings. So basically you don't want to warm him up and not use him, but you want him ready to use in important situations. The common solution to this has been to treat only 9th inning leads <= 3 runs as important, which is ridiculous, but it is a difficult problem. I think one could come up with an algorithm; input relative score, inning, base-out situation, usage and rest of the pitcher, schedule in days ahead, specific batters coming up, but probably not the phases of the moon; and get a useful yes/no answer to the question; should I start warming up my fireman/closer.
And yet most fans still get "up in arms" when I constantly argue that the Royals are FOOLS for not trying Soria in the rotation.
ReplyDeleteSigh. Trying Soria in the rotation is the EXACT kind of unconventional thinking that a small market team like the Royals HAS TO TRY. Doing things conventionally means that they ACCEPT they're inherent handicap of playing in a small market.
In any given year, Dennis Eckersley may have been no more accomplished than some much lesser known reliever(s).
ReplyDeleteOver a career, however, Eckersley is credited with 298-301 win shares (depending on your source). Wilhelm 254, Mariano 241, Goose 219, Lee Smith 198, Fingers 187, Lindy McDaniel 184, Hoffman 183, Wagner 176, Franco 175, Lyle and Sutter, 161 each.
Granted, most of Eckersley's 298+ total came as a starter. But of the 60 starting pitchers in the Hall, exactly half (30) have win shares totals of 298 or fewer. By the win shares numbers, Eck doesn't come up short.
Talk about FTOD! Why not simply have your best reliever throw TWO innings instead of one?
ReplyDeleteGuys like John Hiller and Mike Marshall excelled pitching 2- and 3-inning stints. If hitters only see your best relief man once, the difference between 3 outs and 6 is minimal at best. The Closer Era is a successful experiment in brainwashing.
I am sorry but... why should an innovation (bullpen use) give a competitive advantage to any given team, when every other team is using it at the same time?
ReplyDeleteFor example, the use of advanced stats did give an edge to the A's, and the introduction of special diets gave Arsenal FC extra speed and a championship; but once their competitors copied them, this advantage disappeared.
Re: Sportsman of the Year poll. Is this for *American* Sportsman of the Year or just Sportsman of the Year period? Nadal is in the poll, so apparently it's not restricted to Americans. But in that case, how in the, um, world can Landon Donovan be the only soccer player in the poll? Surely there were at least a half dozen players at the World Cup playing for Spain or the Netherlands or Germany or Uruguay or Ghana or some team that reached the final 8 who deserve a nomination more than Donovan. Look, no doubt Donovan's a great player who had a great year. But there's no way he's the Sportsman of the Year in his own sport unless this is really about Americans only. So how can he be in the running for overall Sportsman of the Year?
ReplyDeleteSportsman of the Year poll needs an "other" option.
ReplyDeleteConsider me all in on the Armando Galarraga for Sportsman of the Year sentiment. As I watched the end of the "imperfect perfect game" live on MLB.TV, I marveled at how composed and professional Galarraga was while Leyland and a few other Tigers were dog-cursing Joyce (any of the touchy-feely stuff that transpired beyond that point is largely irrelevant to me). That was far and away the most sportsmanlike moment I witnessed in 2010. Here's hoping your colleagues/bosses at SI will see it as ~36% of us do.
ReplyDeleteI'd possibly be wrong, but I would hypothesize that the average 9th inning lead for the 1951-1962 Yankees was significantly higher (in a statistical sense) than that of the 1997-2010 Yankees (the former group outscored their opponents by 1.15 R/G, whereas the latter group outscored their opponents by 0.94 R/G). So perhaps we're underestimating Rivera's value when we compare the near-identical 9th-inning-lead W-L percentages of those two Yankee "dynasties"?
ReplyDeleteWhen considering the impact of the closer's role, wouldn't it be more meaningful to compare the winning percentages of teams across eras who entered the 9th inning with a lead of 3 runs or less? Those 9-1 games don't really have much of an impact on whether the prominent closer's role of today has an effect on whether the team won the game or not. It's the close games that are material to the discussion. If you include ALL games where a team leads going into the 9th, regardless of score, that causes less of an effect when a lead is actually blown because it's just one game out of so many. In reality, a large number of those leads wouldn't be blown, regardless of which member of the bullpen was pitching.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I don't fully agree with the Daniel Bard model until a guy like Bard is used in the biggest situation, regardless of whether it's the 7th, 8th, or 9th inning. In Boston, they still used Papelbon in the 9th. If you're going to claim to use your best reliever in the biggest situation, then he should get several saves and several holds. So, if the toughest matchups are set up to happen in the 9th, then that's when your best reliever should be used.
I agree with the prior commenter that to prove this hypothesis you have to compare numbers for actual "save" situations over the years. In other words, throw out all the games, from all eras, where a team had more than a three-run lead and compare apples to apples in order to value closers. Did teams in the fifties or seventies protect leads better in close games than teams with modern closers? I don't think the statistical consistency pointed out in this post means all that much due to the number of non-save situations inevitably included.
ReplyDeleteAlso, isn't the logic of saving your best guy for the ninth pretty easy to explain? Yes, you might have a high-leverage situation in the seventh inning, but couldn't you have an even bigger out (or three) to get in the ninth? Do you want to go to the ninth in a game you lead by a narrow margin planning on not having your best reliever available?
It's called "stoopball" in Brooklyn, or at least it used to be. I played it back in the '50's, and learned it from my father. God knows (but hopefully doesn't care) how long it's been around. As long as stoops, most likely.
ReplyDeleteI'm against bullpen roles and modern bullpen usage, too, but I think this research needs further scrutiny. It is likely there simply aren't 30 pitchers good enough to close > 95% of games. I think if you looked hard enough, you could identify two distinct camps, in which one group has a success rate of 97%, and the other 90% (that'd be a very significant difference).
ReplyDeleteWhy do I think this? Every year, a handful of teams will have trouble identifying their closers, and another handful pulling the role from a reliever past his prime. Maybe, if you divided it into groups, in which Group A pitched > 90% of the time in save situations, and Group B < 50% of the time, you might find a statistically significant difference.
Or not.
The best recent example of Joe's proposal was when the 2007 Cleveland Indians used Raffy Left (Perez) and Raffy Right (Betancourt) as setup men, and each had a preposterously good season, then used not their third-best, but their 374th-best reliever, Joe Borowski, to close games. It worked fine, as the Indians won the Division and made it to the ALCS, where the bullpen played virtually no role in their collapse (the starters saw to that).
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion, it was not by design, as Eric Wedge was a bit of a rigid bullpen manager, but it worked out brilliantly.
Joe:
ReplyDeleteIs this the same friend who thinks Billy Joel is a genius?
@cd1515:
ReplyDelete"the game should absolutely shift, to where the 5-6 relievers make most of the money and the starters (except the aces) make less.
who's more valuable, a guy who throws an inning or 2 every day or a guy who goes 5-6 innings (you hope) every 5th day?"
The only reason I can think of for why you would make up numbers is because bothering to think about the matter for even a few seconds will reveal that this is lunacy.
First of all, I defy you to show me any reliever who has ever thrown an inning, let alone two, EVERY DAY. The most relief appearances ever in a season was Mike Marshall in 1974, 106 G totalling 208 IP (which was good enough for the 62nd most innings in the league that year). Obviously a reliever is not going to pitch every day. And in any case, the *most innings by any reliever EVER* is merely a "good" innings total for a starter *today* in the age of pitch counts and heavy bullpen use.
Nowadays, of course, even the most overworked reliever will probably not top 100 IP in a season. Starters in 2010 averaged 6.0 IP per start*, relievers in 2010 averaged 3.1 outs per relief appearance**. This means a reliever will have to appear about 5.8 times for every 1 start in order to equal the workload of any one starter. 5.8 appearances every 5 days is a pretty tricky task, I would say.
I could go on but my lunch break is almost over. My point is, you're crazy.
* http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/MLB/2010-starter-pitching.shtml "IP/GS"
** http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/MLB/2010-reliever-pitching.shtml "Out/GR"
Inspired by this blog post, we took a look at how the numbers shake out in our baseball simulation game over the course of 550,000 recent simulated games:
ReplyDeletehttp://forum.simdynasty.com/viewthread.php?tid=284357
Joe - I absolutely love your baseball blog! This blog was also very entertaining but I can't help but feel you didn't take your conclusion to the full, and ultimately boring, extent. Your argument that your setup situations are even more important because you have HAVE LEADS going into the ninth can and should ultimately be traced beyond the setup guy, where you ultimately find yourself back at your starter. After all, you have to HAVE LEADS in the 7th, 6th, 5th, and so forth.
ReplyDeleteSo in the end, you have to have good starting pitching! A boring and well-known conclusion to what is an entertaining blog. Thanks again for your material!