So, at first, in honor of Felix Hernandez's Cy Young win on Thursday I was going to do something kitschy you know, make this thing read like an obituary for the pitcher's win, or write it as a eulogy for pitcher's win, or, you know, make some other sort of contrived reference to the day the win died.
But in the end, you know what? The win did not die on Thursday. In fact, Thursday was not even an especially bad day for the win. The real win revolution began a long time ago -- more than 30 years ago. I'll get to that in minute.
Yes, Seattle's Felix Hernandez won the Cy Young despite a 13-12 record. Yes, he won it even though C.C. Sabathia won 21 games -- only the second American League pitcher the last five years to win more than 20 games.* Yes Hernandez won it handily even though there was a lot of hand-wringing -- a couple of those hands being my own -- over the question: Can a pitcher win a Cy Young with 13 wins and 12 losses?
*Sabathia has now led the league in victories in back-to-back years and not won a Cy Young award. The last guy to lead the league in wins in back-to-back years was Roger Clemens in 1997-98 -- and he won the Cy Young both years.The last guy to lead the league in wins in back-to-back years and NOT win at least one Cy Young wasWilbur Wood in the early 1970s.
A quick look:
Leading the league in wins in back-to-back years:
C.C. Sabathia (2009-10): No Cy Youngs
Roger Clemens (1997-98): 2 Cy Youngs
Greg Maddux (1994-95): 2 Cy Youngs
Tom Glavine (1991-92-93): 1 Cy Young
Roger Clemens (1986-87): 2 Cy Youngs
LaMarr Hoyt (1982-83): 1 Cy Young
Jim Palmer (1975-76-77): 2 Cy Youngs
Catfish Hunter (1974-75): 1 Cy Young
Wilbur Wood (1972-73): No Cy Youngs
All of this King Felix love suggests that the era of wins being the dominant pitching statistic has come to an end -- anyway, that was my first reaction. But as I thought about it more, I kind of changed my mind. The win isn't dead, nothing close to dead. People are just looking at it differently. The truth is that King Felix's 13 wins are not CLOSE to the record for fewest wins for a Cy Young pitcher. The truth is that a 13-12 record is not even CLOSE to the least impressive record in Cy Young history.
And in the end, I'm not sure that Hernandez's Cy Young award really has anything at all to do with the devaluing of the win. I think Felix Hernandez was just an unusual pitcher in an unusual year. Look: It's not often that a pitcher as great as King Felix -- someone who was already ACKNOWLEDGED as great even before the year began -- plays for an offensive team as pitiful as the 2010 Seattle Mariners. Well, first of all, it's not often that there even IS an offensive team as pitiful as the 2010 Seattle Mariners. This really was a stunningly bad team.
How bad? Well, for fun, I punched in Steve Carlton's amazing 1972 season into the Mariners season. Repeat: I did this for fun. The 1972 and 2010 seasons are not especially similar. Teams scored about 14% more runs in 2010 than in 1972. And Carlton made 41 starts and completed 30 games in 1972, which obviously would not happen now. But I was curious -- Carlton went 27-10 in low-scoring 1972 for an abominable Philadelphia team that lost 97 games. What if you mirror his season -- Game 1 for Game 1, Game 37 for Game 37, Game 104 for Game 104 -- and give him Seattle's run support. What would the record look like then?
Well, I'll tell you: He would have gone 20-10 with Mariners run support. That's making 41 starts and with little bullpen use. Does that give you an idea how bad the Mariners offense was? If you adjust for era, put Carlton on a five-man rotation, give him the Mariners bullpen -- yep, he probably would have gone something like 13-12.
See, this was just a strange year. The guy who most people would consider the best pitcher in the league played for a team so odious offensively that the won-loss record was simply pointless. And people were paying attention. That's a good thing. For years, writers and analysts have talked about "hard luck" pitchers. Well, Hernandez had such hard luck, that finally people realized it wasn't luck at all. It was absurdity. Anyone who reads this knows I don't like won-loss records anyway, but more often than not the record gives you at least SOME reflection of how well a pitcher pitched. But in King Felix's case, it did not and everyone understood it. Plus Hernandez's other basic stats were so good -- he led the league in starts, in ERA and was just one behind in strikeouts -- that he was more or less the obvious choice no matter his record.*
*A few other people seem to have made this point but it's worth making again: Felix Hernandez DID NOT win the Cy Young because of new-fangled advanced stats. I realize that this has been written by a couple of people, but it just isn't true. He did not lead the league in Fangraphs WAR -- in fact he finished third behind Cliff Lee and Justin Verlander. He was also third in xFIP -- that ERA that attempts to cut out defensive contributions -- behind Francisco Liriano and Lee. The Baseball Reference numbers were better for him -- he did lead in Baseball Reference WAR and Win Probability Added -- but even there he was second in ERA+ to Clay Buchholz. The advanced numbers made plain that Felix had a great year, but other pitchers were very similar. It wasn't odd-looking acronyms that won Felix the Cy Young but things like ERA and strikeouts, you know, the stuff about as old as baseball.
I have mentioned a couple of time that the anti-win revolution began a long time ago. Yes, of course, wins have played a huge role in Cy Young voting. In 1983, LaMarr Hoyt probably wasn't one of the 10 best pitchers in the American League -- he wasn't in the Top 10 in ERA, just as a starting point -- but he got an inordinate amount of run support (an astonishing 19 games where the White Sox scored five or more runs for him) and he won 24 games. Bob Welch won 27 games in 1990 and won the Cy Young though Roger Clemens ERA was a full run lower and he was inarguably the more dominant pitcher.Jack McDowell won 22 games and won the Cy Young in 1993 when Kevin Appier only won 18 and pretty clearly pitched a lot better. And there are other examples.
But, still, the significance of the win in my mind began dwindling way back in 1974, when a pitcher won the Cy Young with (gasp) a 15-12 record. Are you kidding me? A 15-12 record? And that was way back in 1974? How did that happen? And that was nothing. Five years later, a pitcher won the Cy Young with a 6-6 record. SIX AND SIX. And in the years since then, pitchers have won Cy Youngs with nine wins, with seven wins, with six wins, five wins (FIVE STINKING WINS?) and, it's almost impossible to believe, with four wins (no way, four wins? No way. That didn't happen).
If you know your Cy Young history, you could probably put names by those records. Mike Marshall won with that 15-12 record. Then Bruce Sutter won with the 6-6 record. After that it was Willie Hernandez who won with nine wins, Dennis Eckersley with seven, Rollie Fingers with six wins, Steve Bedrosian with five and the ever-popular Mark Davis who won with a 4-3 record. Of course, these are all firemen/relievers/closers, and it has been obvious for more than 35 years that these pitchers absolutely were not to be judged by wins. No, they were to be judged by a new statistic called "saves." The Baseball Writers embraced saves pretty quickly. Of course it was one of the legendary baseball writers, Jerome Holtzman, who invented it.
The point, I think, is that the all-mighty win really started to lose its mojo then. Baseball observers began to realize that the game was changing, and that pitchers who only threw the late innings could be as valuable, could even be MORE valuable, than starters with lots of wins.
Yes, plenty of people continue to love the win as a statistic. Just this week, National League Cy Young winner Roy Halladay threw his support behind the win. So did a few writers. They came hard at us with that old logic: "A pitcher's job to win games." Of course, it really isn't. It's a TEAM'S job to win games. Anyway, the game isn't the same. As starters complete fewer and fewer games, as they pitch fewer and fewer innings, as relievers play a bigger and bigger role, well, it's plain silly to look at pitcher wins the way we did even a few years ago. I think Felix Hernandez's Cy Young award just punctuates the point.
But this is not an obituary. And this is not a eulogy. The win ain't dead, and I don't think the win should be dead either. Seems to me the won-loss record is a perfectly fine thing to look at, a fun thing to talk about, a connection to the past, and it's simple to understand. You can use it to teach math to kids. Plus it often tells us something very interesting. For instance, I think Hernandez's won-loss record was quite revealing. It told us that the Mariners were ghastly at hitting baseballs. Fortunately, the voters* realized that this wasn't Felix Hernandez's fault.
*I should point out here -- or somewhere, I guess -- that I was one of the American League Cy Young voters. My ballot looked like this:
1. Felix Hernandez, Seattle
2. C.C. Sabathia, New York
3. David Price, Tampa Bay
4. Jered Weaver, Los Angeles
5. Cliff Lee, Texas
Circle me, xFIP.
ReplyDeleteCircle me, Storm Davis 1989
ReplyDeleteJoe Magrane, 1988
ReplyDeleteHow in the world are Weaver and Lee above Buchholz?
ReplyDeleteGreat article, and it's good to finally see your Cy Young ballot. There is one nitpick: Roger Clemens did win back to back Cy's in 1986-87 after leading the league both years.
ReplyDelete"It wasn't odd-looking acronyms that won Felix the Cy Young but things like ERA and strikeouts, you know, the stuff about as old as baseball."
ReplyDeleteSo, Joe, are you saying Abner Doubleday invented ERA and strikeouts, too??? Wow...
The point about this not boiling down to advanced stats vs. traditional stats is exactly what I've been thinking. It's much more about common sense than it is about statistical formulas.
ReplyDeleteEveryone is talking about how awful Seattle's offense was, and rightfully so, but another element beyond Felix's control was the bullpen, which was also terrible.
In the 17 quality starts which he did not win, the bullpen allowed runs in 12 of the 15 games in which they appeared. In those games, the Seattle bullpen had a 9.29 ERA and a 2.19 WHIP.
Meanwhile, the Yankee bullpen appeared in 20 of Sabathia's 21 wins and held opponents scoreless in 18 of those 20 games. The Yankee bullpen in those games had a 1.47 ERA and a 0.91 WHIP. And those two games when they did allow runs? The Yankees were already ahead 8-1 in the 9th and 10-5 in the 8th.
EXACTLY. I am a Mariners fan and all along I've thought that the historical putridness that was the M's offense was not stressed enough. In most years there will be SOME correlation between wins and performance. This was much closer to a special circumstance than a redefining of the award. The voters should get credit for making the right choice, though.
ReplyDeleteFelix season was great but it wasn't an all time great the way a lot of people are making it out to be. Sure the Mariners gave him terrible run support and the bullpen was bad but the Mariners were one of the best defensive teams in baseball and he pitched in a pitcher's park.
ReplyDeleteI think Cliff Lee should have won the award. Ironically he probably would have won the award had he stayed with the Mariners remember he was 8-3 with a 2.34 era when he got traded. The Great defense good pitcher's park is the perfect place for Lee with his insane 10.2 K/bb ratio and his style of putting the ball in play.
Hernandez had 30 quality starts and Sabathia had 26. While they were still the pitcher of record in those quality starts, the Yankee offense scored 4.92 runs per game for Sabathia; Seattle scored 2.77 runs per game for Hernandez.
ReplyDeleteIf you take out the one outlier for Seattle (they had one game with 11 runs), that becomes 2.48 runs per game in Hernandez's other 29 quality starts.
The Yankees scored 4 runs or more for Sabathia while he was still in the game in 21 of his 26 quality starts.
Both pitchers started a total of 34 games. The Yankees scored 6 runs or more in 16 of Sabathia's starts; Seattle did that in just three of Hernandez's starts. In fact, the Yankees scored 8 runs or more for Sabathia ten times; Seattle did that just once for Hernandez. New York scored 3 runs or less in eight of Sabathia's starts; Seattle did that in 19 of Hernandez's starts.
For all the talk of Sabathia somehow facing better competition because he's in the AL East, consider this: the three lowest scoring teams in the AL were Seattle, Baltimore and Cleveland. Hernandez faced those teams four times. Sabathia faced them eleven times. The next lowest socring teams were Oakland and Kansas City, which they each faced five times.
It is very rare to reach 30 quality starts as Hernandez did. In the last 20 years, it's only been done twice (Randy Johnson in 2002 and Greg Madduxin 1992). And remember, Hernandez did it in just 34 starts. He's just the second person in history to reach 30 quality starts in a season in which he started 34 games or less. The other is Bob Gibson, who was 32 for 34 in 1968.
Since Glavine won his Cy in '91, that means he led the league in wins in '92 and '93 without winning the award in either of those two years. So technically, Glavine is the last guy to meet the criteria. Still, that's nearly 20 years ago, which is by no means an insignificant amount of time.
ReplyDeleteUm. Hooray for nitpicking!
~MJA
Unless I'm mistaken, you're misapplying the quote in the title.
ReplyDeleteWhen they say, "The king is dead! Long live the king!" it means "The (old) king is dead! Long live the (new) king!" Two different kings. It's not meant to be a posthumous salute.
Good post, though. An interesting way to look at things that I don't think I'd read before.
Unless I'm mistaken, you're misapplying the quote in the title.
ReplyDeleteWhen they say, "The king is dead! Long live the king!" it means "The (old) king is dead! Long live the (new) king!" Two different kings. It's not meant to be a posthumous salute.
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I thought the meaning was that the old VIEW of the win as the stat of primacy is dead, whereas there is now a new view, where the win is not the one true stat
Perform the same exercise assuming Felix was a member of the '72 Phillies and he posts a record of 18-11. Give him seven extra starts to match Carlton and you're looking at something like 22-13, a record few could claim wasn't Cy-worthy in its own right given the quality of that team.
ReplyDeleteThe 1972 season in which Carleton won 27 games was strike-shortened by 6 games, so you figure he would have gotten at least one more start in a full year. He won 27 of the Phillies' 59 wins that year. The pitcher with the next highest win total was the immortal Bucky Brandon, a reliever / spot starter, with 7.
ReplyDeleteUpon placing King Felix atop the ballot, a great shadow descended upon the baseball scribes.
ReplyDeleteHow to atone for the abomination that is this thirteen game winner?
They hoped that Denton True himself would not descend from the Kenesaw Mountaintop, and smite them for their shameful blasphemy.
The shadow lifted, and the recorders of history wisely elevated the American League Win Leaders to the next three spots on the ballot!
Thus though the absurdity King Felix could not be avoided, he would safely be accompanied into the history books by champions of true grit, possessed with the knowledge of what it takes to be a winner.
Long live the Win!
Wouldn't "Happy" or "Lucky" be a more appropriate nickname for someone named Felix?
ReplyDeletePerhaps less Happy to be pitching in Seattle and more Lucky to be pitching in the current era of award criteria.
"(Carlton) would have gone 20-10 with Mariners run support... If you adjust for era, put Carlton on a five-man rotation, give him the Mariners bullpen -- yep, he probably would have gone something like 13-12."
ReplyDeleteI see how he would obviously win fewer games in this context, but how in the world would he lose MORE?
@David in NYC, if Carlton was used by today's standards, he would've left many games earlier -- suppose he leaves behind & then the bullpen can't keep it close enough to get him off the hook...
ReplyDeleteAnd in general, while xFIP and its cousins didn't win this for Felix, it is the Analytical Community and the willingness to question 100-year-old assumptions that made it possible. That alone is enough to get Murray Chass firing up his Underwood manual typewriter...
Wonder how he hooks that thing up to the internet anyway? And why he blogs so regularly about why bloggers don't know what they're talking about....
@David in NYC: I'm assuming that adjusting for era would mean more losses, because you're right, making less starts and having the bullpen blow a few games wouldn't increase his loss totals.
ReplyDeleteIt actually seems like advanced statistics DID win the Cy Young for King Felix. Most voters probably looked at Felix, Sabathia, and Price as the top 3 based on traditional statistics. Felix, while not first in categories like WAR, ERA+, etc., was ahead of the other top contenders, which probably sealed the deal for many voters on the fence.
ReplyDelete@Mark -- Are you saying that the 1972 Phillies, who went 32-93 when Carlton wasn't pitching*, had a significant number** of games where Carlton was behind and they later rallied to at least tie the score and give Carlton ND?
ReplyDelete*Yes, I know that record is not games without Carlton pitching, it's games where Carlton didn't get the decision (4 out of 41 starts where the Phillies went 2-2; so it's actually 30-91, which is even worse.)
**Enough to increase Carlton's losses by 20%.
I have extreme doubts about that scenario. Plus, I cannot see how making fewer starts -- and shorter ones at that -- would lead to an increase in decisions of either kind.
French Hulk>Chinese Hulk.
ReplyDeleteReally interested in why you had Lee 5th, when he was definitely the 1st or 2nd best pitcher in the league...
ReplyDeleteWith the focus on Cy Young winners with low win numbers, how does Eric Gagne's 2-win Cy Young season go unmentioned?
ReplyDeleteActually, I'm Garrett, and if someone can explain this absurd new "select profile" thing so that one can properly identify oneself, I'd be much obliged.
ReplyDeleteI'm also curious about Joe's justification for placing Sabathia second on his ballot. David Price, for instance, played in the same "super-high-pressure" AL East, yet had an ERA nearly half a run better than CC. He also won almost as many games as CC (with a better winning percentage), if you're an old-schooler.
I'm certainly not trying to put down Sabathia, who's proven to be one of the finest pitchers of this era, but unless you give him brownie points for innings-eating, it seems tough to justify his 2nd-place ranking.
Yeah, I was thinking Eric Gagne. Rollie Fingers is probably the biggest "loser" though.
ReplyDeleteJoe:
ReplyDeleteYou care about stats and ERA over wins so much and leave Bucholz out of the top 5?
Murray Chass, of course, posted a lament on his non-blog about this. I do soooooooooooooooo miss Fire Joe Morgan on days like this.
ReplyDelete"You care about stats and ERA over wins so much and leave Bucholz out of the top 5? "
ReplyDeleteThere's absolutely no justification for putting Buchholz as one of the top 5 pitchers in the AL. He threw 170 innings. Hell, he wasn't even the best starter on the Red Sox this year - that was Lester.
If this trend continues, Blyleven, Kaat, John, Pettitte, Mussina and Cone will all be HOF some day. And if RBI trending in MVP voting was really slipping, then Jeter would have been MVP in '06.
ReplyDeleteI have to admit, fan as I am of "newfangled" stats and completely aware that the Mariners' gross offensive ineptitude is primarily responsible for Hernandez' record, I can't really get all that excited about giving the Cy Young to guy who, in half his starts, trudged off in the mound in defeat. Baseball is a team sport, the object of which is to win: shouldn't team record in a pitcher's starts account for at least some part of a pitching award?
ReplyDeleteAfter all, if you feel the best pitcher is the guy who did the best on elements a pitcher controls, then you should be irate that Hernandez won, not, say Cliff Lee or Francisco Liriano, who score better on advanced pitching metrics, right?
In the end, it's a subjective award, not an objective one, and for me a guy who wins a lot is more interesting than one who pitches better, but loses. Until recently, the Cy Young, because of the weight of wins, was similar to the MVP in that it was given to pitchers on better teams. You know...I kinda like that...tho I wouldn't put as much weight on wins. Stewart or Clemens over Welch, say...
Hack away, friends!
Here's an imaginary scenario for Jay Stevens to chew on:
ReplyDelete1. The M's don't score a single run all year (not too difficult to imagine). They go 0-162.
2. This scenario doesn't care what the other M's pitchers do, but every time Felix pitches, he gives up exactly one run (earned or unearned, doesn't really matter); or we could also include a scenario where he sometimes gives up exactly zero runs in less than a complete game and therefore is not involved in the decision. He goes 0-34, or, in the sub-scenario, 0 and something.
3. Assuming no other pitcher in the league matches this performance, are you telling me that Felix, because of his lousy W-L record, is NOT the best pitcher in the league?
4. Extrapolate this scenario to a more plausible real-life scenario (say, for instance, Felix in 2010). What's the logical difference? (This is called reductio ad absurdum; please Google it if you don't know it.)
5. I rest my case.
Thanks, Chuck. Like I said, I understand that wins aren't the best (or even a very good) measure of a pitcher's ability, but I do think they should be a factor. Not the only factor, not a terribly important factor, but a factor, and largely because of a subjective reason: I find winning pitchers interesting.
ReplyDeleteIn your scenario, if I had a vote, I wouldn't cast it for the 0-33 pitcher.
That said, I get why Hernandez had a better year than Sabathia. But, then, if we were going by the best pitcher of 2010, then the award should have gone to Francisco Liriano or Cliff Lee, right? As others have pointed out, Felix' selection was based on ERA and Ks and WHIP, also flawed indicators of ability.
Buchholz had a solid year, but aside from ERA he was not the best in the league and not even top 5. His innings were way lower (and for me at least, innings are very important), WHIP wasn't all that great...
ReplyDeleteI pretty much agree 100% with Joe's ballot. Wouldn't fight Price over Sabathia (I think mine would have gone Sabathia 2, Price 3, but I wouldn't argue either way) and I also wouldn't argue if Liriano or maybe Verlander had snuck in at the bottom, but that's probably what I would have hone with.
How does one pretty much agree 100%?
ReplyDeletethere's flawed, and there's flawed... at most (at most), a pitcher has 40% control over his won/loss record. The other 60% has little or nothing to do with him.
ReplyDeleteI pretty much think 100% that Ks, ERA and WHIP the pitcher has a bit more control over.
A question for JP:
ReplyDeleteThe business of measuring performance in baseball has reached incredible levels of precision (although baseball stats are quite a few notches below sociological or bio-medical stats, in my opinion).
I would like to know if baseball statisticians are beginning to measure what I would think of as more "biological" parameters: swing speed, speed, strength, reflexes (i.e how fast an outfielder "jumps" on a flyball) or even ball trajectory when pitched or thrown, and correlating these values to performance numbers.
We all know a player will decline during his thirties, but we don't know how to detect declining performance before it manifests itself on numbers. Maybe we could, by measuring swing speed during the season, or by using imaging techniques to reveal how the ball evolves after he pitches it week after week (i.e not only speed, but the movement of the pitch).
I think there should be a clear, measurable threshold that signals the beginning of the end for a player, as there are certain identifiable thresholds for ageing, cancer risk or heart performance. It just seems to be the way the human body is, to work at tip-top condition and then to suddenly and quickly fall apart.
I often read "So and so is losing his speed" or "his change-up has vastly improved" but seldom any hard data is presented.
Thanks for your help.
Any reason why Jon Lester was left off of your ballot? Lester beat Sabathia in FIP, xFIP, K/9, K/BB,(Fangraphs) WAR, and finished only 0.08 runs behind Sabathia for ERA. I'm not saying he should've finished second (instead of Sabathia), I'm just saying that by most objective measures, Lester was the better pitcher.
ReplyDeleteInteresting question, Alejo... I'd be curious too. You'd think that such information would be of enormous help in sports medicine - you mostly mentioned hitting, but to my knowledge there isn't really anything conclusive about "100 pitch counts" (plus or minus) other than individual empirical evidence. It would be interesting to make comparisons in those areas between April and September, or this year and the last. I'm sure there's a point where "adjusting" is no longer enough, but other than ending stats and drawing conclusions from those, the specifics of why and when seem elusive. It has always intrigued me why some, most, players, have their performance fade away, but others just seem to fall off a cliff. You would indeed think that would be more predictable.
ReplyDeleteI don't like how some commentators (not you) are calling this a victory for sabermetrics among the BWWA....and yet there was no love for Lee, Liriano or Verlander. While this may have been a step in the right direction for baseball awards I think we still have a long way to go.
ReplyDeleteJoe,
ReplyDeleteIt's a minor quibble but how is Sabathia ahead of Price, Weaver and Lee? I'm searching for some kind of rationale for voting CC over any of those other 3 and all I can come up with is total innings pitched. Is it the added value of being a reliable workhorse that puts him ahead of the other three? (Weaver's not all that far behind in IP, while being far superior in all rate stats, so that's curious to me)
Innocent question: if wins aren't a valid indicator of quality pitching, what about losses as a valid indicator of bad pitching? Most times it seems like the Ls end up with the culpable party.
ReplyDelete@Anon- Bad pitchers give up a lot of runs- so many, that even on good teams they tend to drop games.
ReplyDelete