"(Brendan) Ryan became expendable for the Cardinals after they acquired infielder Ryan Theriot from the Los Angeles Dodgers last month. Theriot was billed immediately as the Cardinals starting shortstop, and they let other teams know that Ryan was available."
-- From Derrick Goold's story on the Cardinals trading Brendan Ryan to Seattle for a Class A reliever.
I wrote this on Twitter: I can rarely remember reading a baseball notion quite as comical as Brendan Ryan becoming expandable BECAUSE the Cardinals acquired Ryan Theriot. I'm sure that there are other reasons Brendan Ryan really became expendable -- most of these having to do with manager Tony La Russa -- but sure enough they keep pushing the Ryan Theriot thing.
"The reason that Ryan Theriot was traded for is we have a chance to win," La Russa told reporters.
"We didn’t try to get (Blake) Hawksworth off the club," La Russa told Tim McKernan about the Hawksworth for Theriot deal. "We had some right hand relief depth and we were able to use him to get a player that we really like in Ryan Theriot."
I have to admit: I don't fully understand why the Cardinals really like Ryan Theriot. He's a 31-year-old shortstop with a career 82 OPS+ (he did have a good on-base percentage in 2008) and a fading reputation as an adequate defensive shortstop. In fact, last year he hardly even played shortstop. The Cubs moved him to second base to make room for 20-year-old Starlin Castro. Then they traded him to Los Angeles, and the Dodgers did not play him even once at short even though their starting shortstop Rafael Furcal was hurt. The Dodgers preferred to put Jamey Carroll out there, though Carroll had not played a single game at shortstop in the big leagues in three years.
Brendan Ryan, meanwhile, posted the best defensive numbers at shortstop in baseball last year. He really is a defensive marvel. It's also true that he didn't hit a lick. His .223/.279/.294 line was abominable and probably unplayable. Maybe that reflects his true offensive value. But maybe not. The year before, he hit .292/.340/.400. The difference seems to have been an abnormally high batting average on balls in play in 2009 (.332) and an abnormally low BABIP in 2010 (.253). He may have been lucky in 2009. He also may have been unlucky in 2010. Maybe his true value is somewhere in the middle.
If he can hit something closer to what he did in 2009, with the way he fields he can be one of the most valuable shortstops in the American League. You know, unless Derek Jeter rebounds, there's an opening for best shortstop in the AL. You know who led league shortstops in combined-WAR in 2010? We are combining Fangraphs WAR and Baseball Reference Wins Above Replacement ... it was Oakland's Cliff Pennington. Ryan can certainly be a Pennington kind player. Seattle has been a team that has tried to win with a certain strategy -- with defense playing a big part -- and it seems to me that getting Ryan for a minor league arm could work out for them the way getting Frankie Gutierrez did two years ago.
Then again, Ryan might not hit at all and end up on the bench by mid-May. Nobody really knows. My point here is not that the Mariners may have made a good move. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. My point here is that the Cardinals traded for the veteran presence of Ryan Theriot (and they're paying him more than $3 million) and then believed this trade made Brendan Ryan "expendable." That just seems bizarre.
And we really may be getting to the point where Tony La Russa's year-to-year decision to manage or retire is badly and visibly hurting the Cardinals. Because it does not feel like that Cardinals are building a team as much as it feels like they are trying to cobble together one more winner for Tony La Russa.
Look: Brendan Ryan isn't exactly a kid, but he is two years younger than Theriot and has at least proven to be superior defensively. What Ryan Theriot offers is that sort of veteran comfort and general scrappiness that makes Tony La Russa happy. They signed soon-to-be 35 year old Lance Berkman when he is coming off the sort of year that makes you wonder if his terrific career is on a serious downslope. More veteran comfort. The Cardinals are sending out all sorts of weird vibes about what they think of their one gifted young everyday player, Colby Rasmus -- it's hard to wade through it all but it doesn't seem like there's a lot of love going on there.
There are other signs of one-yearitis -- uncomfortable signs, I think, if you're a Cardinals fan. Tony La Russa is one of the great managers in baseball history. He has won a World Series and two pennants with the Cardinals and guided the Cardinals to the playoffs seven division titles and more than 1,300 victories. But at this point, he does not seem especially interested in being patient or in developing players. He wants now. And who can blame him? He's 66 years old, he has been managing big league teams for 32 years, there's no great motivation to think about future years.
And I just don't think that sort of short-range strategy works much. The Kansas City Royals, at the end of owner Ewing Kauffman's life, were desperate to give him one more winner. This actually led to one of the most remarkable and stunning facts you will ever hear -- in 1990 the Kansas City Royals had the highest payroll in all of baseball. This was because the Royals had given absurd contracts to Mark Davis and Storm Davis, and they gave a big extension to Mark Gubicza. and they actually made 42-year-old Bob Boone one of the highest paid players in baseball and so on. Those financially reckless Royals.
Of course it didn't work. The Royals after winning 92 games in 1989 were dreadful in 1990, going 75-86 and finishing sixth in the American League West. They were sixth again the next year even after falling to seventh in total payroll. They lost 90 games in 1992. And in 1993, Ewing Kauffman died. The effort to get him one more pennant was noble. But it seems to me that you don't build winners with that kind of short-sighted strategy.
And now, it seems like the Cardinals are using that same strategy. The Cardinals have enough talent to honestly believe they can contend. In 2010, they had the best player in baseball, a generally hard-hitting outfield, a great defensive shortstop, got 96 starts out Adam Wainwright, Chris Carpenter and Jaime Garcia (combined 2.79 ERA and 524-183 strikeout to walk) and had an often decent bullpen. But even with all that, they only won 86 games. And they have not won a single playoff game since winning the World Series four years ago. Now they've gone out and traded for Ryan Theriot in the hope that will help make them a winner. As a friend of mine says about anything: "It COULD work." I'm just not sure they're seeing straight in St. Louis these days.
Albert Pujols? Just saying....
ReplyDeletecircle me Ryan Ludwick
ReplyDeleteI feel sorry for the St. Louis pitchers. Ryan was a vacuum cleaner. Berkman is a lawn ornament in the outfield. This could get messy.
ReplyDeleteI'm probably biased by the fact that he's a Tea Party fanatic, but it seems to me that Tony LaRussa has become a bitter, cranky old man.
ReplyDeleteHoly cow. I just wrote this same thing. I agree with lester bangs. The pitchers won't be happy when they compare The Riot with Ryan. This deal doesn't make any sense. And don't the Mariners have their own Ryan with Jack Wilson?
ReplyDeleteAgree. This sucks. Go Rangers. (my new adopted AL team since I got to go to a game last year, they made the WS. Hope to go again in 11)
ReplyDeleteSo they'll have Holliday in left and Berkman in right (or the other way around, it doesn't matter) and Rasmus will get the blame for not catching everything - which he'll have to do with those guys out there with him.
ReplyDeleteMozeliak has made some comments suggesting that he is making moves based on clubhouse chemistry, which might even be a worse answer, if that is possible. If veteran leadership is so thinskinned they can't absorb and guide a few strange personalities on their roster, then what is the good in having veteran leadership in the first place?
ReplyDeleteI remain amazed that there's this much fuss over a player with a career OPS+ of 76.
ReplyDeleteAnd, additionally, suggesting that getting rid of a player with a career OPS+ of 76 means the Cardinals are on their way to becoming the Royals is wildly overstating the case.
ReplyDelete@ Vidor: OPS+ is just one facet of a player's worth. You have to take everything into account to find his value. As poorly as Ryan hit, he still charted in positive territory in WAR.
ReplyDelete@Dave S.: I've wondered the same thing. Is this a question of young and irreverant versus the reverant core? Of course, Pujols going to that rally last year allows us to focus on this sort of thing.
Sounds like typical KC animosity towards STL. Having been raised in Kansas and having lived in STL, I've seen both sides of that coin. But seriously, just remember - there's no talent whatsoever at the St. Louis Post-Dispatch or on St. Louis sports radio. Can't remember the last time they offered any insight into anything relating to the Cards (with Rick Hummel being perhaps the only exception). So don't give any credence to a single word that Goold or anyone else writes or utters in STL. TLR runs the show and obviously wanted Ryan off the team. Case closed.
ReplyDelete"As poorly as Ryan hit, he still charted in positive territory in WAR."
ReplyDeleteI've seen his WAR number. He still has a career OPS+ of 76. And that's his CAREER number. His number last year was 57, which is a nice number for the Heinz corporation but not for a position player.
I'm not sure what it is. Joe Pos seems to have a dislike for TLR that seeps through his writing about the Cardinals. But the Royals didn't get where they are by dumping players with career OPS+ of 76; they got there by acquiring those kinds of players.
But Vidor, you're still missing a major point. Even if Ryan is as bad as you say he is, he still has more value than Theriot. So you're still making the team less valuable than it was. Quote us Theriot's stats too please. They aren't pretty.
ReplyDelete"he still has more value than Theriot"
ReplyDeleteMarginally. At best. We got rid of a bad player and replaced him with a player who might be a little bit better and might be a little bit worse. Which is why I find the reaction to these moves in some quarters wildly overblown.
"Marginally. At best. We got rid of a bad player and replaced him with a player who might be a little bit better and might be a little bit worse."
ReplyDeleteAnd paid 3 times as much for the honor. Also remember that this is a team that was so thin in the infield last year that they gave at bats to guys like Aaron Miles and Pedro Feliz. The only thing that changed between then and now is that we hope and pray Freese's ankles are capable of playing and we swapped Theriot for Ryan. Which is to say, even if the Cards did start Theriot and Schumaker, Brendan Ryan would still be useful for late lead situations. Or any situation where they thought it might be nice to field a plus defensive lineup, really.
So who will be on the bench? Maybe they are ready to hand an opportunity to Tyler Greene, but I doubt it. This middle infield will not be completely filled until they land one more veteran to a scrapheap contract.
Theriot's acquisition did not push out Ryan. This was done for personality reasons.
The '97 Florida Marlins are probably the best example of an incredibly short-sighted strategy actually paying off.
ReplyDelete"I can rarely remember reading a baseball notion quite as comical as Brendan Ryan becoming expandable..."
ReplyDeleteThat really would be comical. I assume you mean expendable :)
It remains that Theriot has a higher career WAR than B Ryan. And that his career defensive numbers at SS are above average. I feel like all the hipster baseball writers got together and decided that, because TLR demanded this trade, that it is a bad one.
ReplyDeleteLook: both these guys are below average players. The difference will be less than a win either way. But when the groupthink machine of Posnanski/Law/Fangraphs gets going, the narrative just can't be stopped. "Stupid LaRussa. Stupid Theriot. They suck. Now let's figure out how to support the argument."
If this is about TLR being heavy-handed, by all means, he is. But let's not pretend that this move will mean anything. It's neither bad nor good. It just is--like a thousand other off-season moves.
Maybe they could squeeze some SS time out of Hubie Brooks?
ReplyDeleteThere's a better ss in AL than Elvis Andrus? Who, what, where?
ReplyDeleteI am shocked that Cliff Lee is headed back to Philly Wow? Where were the smart reporting experts on this one?
Joe, I love ya but I've got to agree with Jon on this one. No way the Cards are hamstringing their future by signing Theriot to a harmless contract and giving up Ryan. You could very easily argue that this deal makes them better. Much ado about nothing.
ReplyDeleteBaseball question #1 in STL is whether Pujols will finish his career as a Cardinal. That will likely be determined in the next 2 months. There is no baseball question #2. Everything else, including managerial mind games with substandard infielders, is trivia. If the answer to baseball question #1 is negative, it won't matter who plays SS in whatever is left of Busch Stadium after the fans burn it to the ground.
ReplyDeleteIt's time to present LaRussa with a rocking chair and a blanket and give the keys to Jose Oquendo. The Cards talk about pitching to contact and now they open a canyon at SS. Rasmus? Ryan? Motte? Jay? Jaime Garcia? Yes, all are young with varying levels of maturity and "head-case-ness" but how much of the conflict is driven by LaRussa? I see a long 2011 season for Cards fans.
ReplyDeleteI don't really have a problem with Theriot over Ryan. The worst Theriot has ever been is what he did last year (.270 BA, .321 OBP). So, you could probably expect that type of production at minimum out of Theriot next year. In fact, Bill James projects .277/.340 out of Theriot in 2011.
ReplyDeleteRyan, on the other hand, had a .223 BA, .279 OBP last year. And Bill James projects .254/.308 out of him in 2011. He has been better than that in the past, but what if you get the guy that was putrid last year? NL lineups can't afford two black holes in the lineup, defense notwithstanding.
La Russa's a tea party fanatic?
ReplyDeleteI knew there had to be a reason I've always detested him.
Frankly, I suspect if you start evaluating baseball players and managers by whether they are Tea Party types, you probably wouldn't follow much baseball. As we saw with all-time great Luke Scott, baseball player politics seem to be extremely conservative--except, of course, when it comes to supporting the union that gets them high salaries; then they become Eugene V. Debs.
ReplyDeleteLaRussa is a liberal and certainly not part of the tea party. In addition, most people who are part of the tea party are not fanatics on anything other than wanting our politicians of all parties to stop the silly spending. Agree or don't agree (I agree on the spending but not on the Palin love) but stop the demonizing please
ReplyDeleteJoe I love your blogs and read them most every day but it isn't any fun for me to just read and not be able to comment other than as anonymous. I just did a length post on this and tried to enter my name in the typepad and got told my name wasn't authorized or some such.
ReplyDeleteThen when I went to re-enter it as anonymous, most of the post had been deleted - not all which would have made some sense but about half, which makes no sense.
If there is some basic thing I am missing, by all means enlighten me but I don't have google or livejournal or AIM or wordpress or a URL or an openID so anonymous and typepad seem my only choices.
Now for at least some of that lengthy post I referred to above:
ReplyDeleteI am a lifelong Cards fan and would enshrine TLR in the HoF just for the effect he had on the team in 96 but who would have to resist strangling him for what he has done since 03 (tino, mulder, overruling Duncan and trading haren not reyes, edmonds, rolen, drew, kennedy, not playing Ludwick everyday, then trading him for less than he was worth, and now for thinking Theriot is better than Ryan as the every day SS.
Nothing will stop me from rooting for the cards but I will be a much happier camper with reduced chances of heart attack when TLR is gone or the Cards get a GM who is actually in charge (which BTW would also likely mean TLR is gone).
Cardinal Mike
"NL lineups can't afford two black holes in the lineup, defense notwithstanding."
ReplyDeleteDefense notwithstanding?!
We're not talking about the LF here, we're talking about the most important defensive position not involved in every pitch.
Wainwright/Carpenter/Garcia threw ground ball rates of 51.6%/51.1%/55.9% respectively. Their BABIPs were .281/.285/.302. Ryan's UZR was 11.5 at SS last year. Theriot's was -1.0 (-3.3 at SS). What will a notably poorer defensive SS do to BABIPs for guys that throw a whole lot of grounders?
Plus, the Theriot/Berkman combo will give the Theriot/Soriano combo a real run for their money as the worst combination to ever handle short OF popups. Theriot will try to call off Berkman for everything short of a deep fly ball.
Dick McCheesedoodle,
ReplyDeleteWell yes, you're right. I'm not arguing that defense is unimporant. But the Cards had 3 bad hitters in their lineup last year (not including the pitcher) and Ryan was by far the worst. The other two were Yadier Molina and Skip Schumaker. Thus, the design of this trade was to improve the offense by getting Theriot. They are weakening the defense, sure. Overall, WAR suggests they aren't gaining anything by making the switch. Thus, as Joe pointed out, the only gain is in "attitude" since LaRussa didn't like Ryan.
Still, my only point was to say that this wasn't a horrendously awful trade. The big weakness of it was what you pointed out with the pitching staff, and the fact that Ryan is only 28 years old and could improve. But he was just so bad last year with the bat...
Just for fun, here are the monthly OBPs in 2010 for Brendan Ryan--the guy whose departure led Joe Pos to question the future of the St. Louis Cardinals.
ReplyDelete.276
.277
.288
.250
.290
.283
As for the commenter above who complained about being forced to post anonymously--you can just make up a URL to go with whatever username you pick. I do.
ReplyDeleteWhat expendable mean?
ReplyDeleteAs a Cub fan, I am gleeful that Theriot will be trying to play short for the Cardinals this year.
ReplyDeleteApparently it works, thank you vidor
ReplyDelete@Mark Daniel, I argue that a major reason why Skip was bad at bat last year is precisely because he was playing 2B and doing poorly at it.
ReplyDeleteGetting theriot and putting him at 2B with Skip going to RF or 4th Of or another team would have improved 2 spots IMO. Of course another week or so and he could have been had for nothing.
Skip was always on base 35% before last year - not a lack hole by any means, unlike his play at 2B
It's amazing how much has been made about a .230 hitter. Brendan Ryan was a head case that Tony LaRussa didn't like. So they got rid of him.
ReplyDeleteRemember when Chris Carpenter wanted to kill him?
It will be interesting to see if the defensive difference between Theriot and Ryan makes a big difference for GB staff. Carpenter and Wainwright will likely continue to be very good because of their DIPS numbers (Decent K's, great HRA, low BB), but Garcia and Westbrook are much more dependent on their effectiveness as GB guys. Westbrook more so than Garcia. Lohse is a FB pitcher. So, considering that the defense will only big a major component of Westbrook's performance, maybe it's not *that* big of an issue.
ReplyDeleteI agree with a poster earlier that TLR seems to be even crankier than he usually is ... which is generally pretty cranky. I don't know what kind of point he's trying to make with Rasmus, but I just keep holding my breath that they don't trade him for someone with a lot of grit (like Aaron Rowand), just because TLR doesn't like his personality/approach.
As for Berkman, if BABIP does regress to the mean, he should be worth more than league average (2 WAR), which was exactly what Ludwick has been the past 2 years. Playing Jay v LHP and Berkman against RHP, should/could bring 3 WAR from RF ... which is a decent upgrade. It also puts Jay (a potential league average OF over a full season) as the 4th OF, which is an upgrade over what StL has had in the past.
I also agree with the other guy who said the only question worth really discussing is whether Pujols re-signs with the team. I read an article the other day positing that Pena's 1-year deal with CHC was so he could hold the position as the Cubs would be a major bidder for Albert. I puked at the thought.
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