Friday, December 31, 2010

Hall of Fame: The Borderline Five

OK, so there are five players left on my ballot ... and I'm exhausted. I have written about 15,000 words about the Hall of Fame already this week, and I'm not even through the entire ballot? You have got to be kidding me.

No, it's worse than that. I have left what are, for me, the five toughest calls. If you read Thursday's installment of Hall of Fame Week, then you know that I have used up eight of my 10 Hall of Fame votes (I have never entirely understood why the Hall of Fame limits writers to 10 ... but they do). So I have two votes left and five players who in my mind all have both strong Hall of Fame cases AND serious flaws in their Hall of Fame cases. I voted for two of the five. I suspect these final two will not match many other ballots.

Here we go:



-- Kevin Brown: OK, this is an oversimplification -- just like most of my arguments. But it seems to me there's a pretty good chance that every single pitcher with at least 3,000 innings pitched and an ERA+ of better than 120 will end up in the Hall of Fame ... every one of them except two. This is, I admit, using my own projections, and it is certainly possible that I'm wrong about who will and won't go into the Hall of Fame.

But here is the list of the 3,000 inning/121-or-better ERA+ pitchers who are not in the Hall of Fame.

1. Roger Clemens (143 ERA+): I think he will have some serious blowback because of the steroids stain, but he has an argument as the greatest pitcher of all time and I think that will win out. He will get in.

2. Randy Johnson (136 ERA+): First ballot.

3. Greg Maddux (132 ERA+): I think he will break Tom Seaver's record for highest percentage of the vote (originally remembered Nolan Ryan with highest, but Seaver's percentage was 98.84% and Ryan's 98.79%).

4. Curt Schilling (128 ERA+): It won't be an easy ride, but I think in the end his great postseason record and impact on the game will get him in. More on Schilling in a minute.

5. John Smoltz (125 ERA+): With his dominance as both a starter and closer, I think he will be a first ballot pick.

6. Mike Mussina (123 ERA+): I could be wrong here, but I think 270 wins, a .636 winning percentage and retiring while on top will eventually send Mussina to Cooperstown.

So who are the two who I think will not get in? Well, one is Eddie Cicotte, who you might remember was played by Edward R. Murrow in the movie "8 Men Out." Cicotte was banned from baseball for his pro-communist statements on television, no, wait, I'm confusing things. Anyway, he's banned from baseball forever and no one even seems to be fighting for him anymore.

The other is Kevin Brown. I admit to having mixed emotions about him. He was an undeniably dominant pitchers at times in his career. He twice led the league in ERA, finished second two other times -- when it comes to preventing teams from scoring runs (which many would say is the pitcher's No. 1 goal) he was undoubtedly one of the best at it of his generation. He ranks 10th among non-Hall of Famers in another little stat I like called "Runs Saved Against Average" -- he saved 304 runs above average, just one behind certain Hall of Famer Tom Glavine.

But Brown's case is still borderline. His case is, on the surface anyway, the same case as Schilling. It is NOT the same case Schilling, but it is on the surface. First the similarities:

Kevin Brown: 211-144, 3.28 ERA, 127 ERA+.
Curt Schilling: 216-146, 3.46 ERA, 128 ERA+.

Awfully close. Kevin Brown is Schilling's No. 1 comp on Baseball Reference. And Schilling is Kevin Brown's No. 7 comp (Higher up on the Brown comp list are No.1 Bob Welch, No. 2 Orel Hershiser and then a couple of Hall of Famers, No. 3 Don Drysdale and No. 4 Catfish Hunter).

But here are a couple of key differences: Schilling's strikeout-to-walk (3,116 to 711) is is historic, the best ratio since 1900. I mentioned above that many people would say a pitcher's No. 1 goal is preventing runs, but the numbers strongly suggest that there are only so many ways a pitcher can do this -- walks and strikeouts are two of the very few things somewhat within a pitcher's control. Brown's strikeout-to-walk is is very good too (2,397 to 901) but obviously not in Schilling's stratosphere. When you consider they are both borderline Hall of Fame choices, this seems a big advantage for Schilling.

The other thing, as mentioned, is Schilling's remarkable postseason record -- 11-2, 2.23 ERA (4-1 with a 2.06 ERA in the World Series). He pitched the famous bloody sock game. He was breathtaking enough in the 2001 World Series to be SI's co-Sportsman of the Year. People have different views on how much postseason performance should be considered when talking about the Hall of Fame, but this is a big checkmark in Schilling's column. Brown, meanwhile, was generally blah in the postseason, and his 0-3, 6.04 World Series record is less than blah.

And this is Brown's biggest Hall of Fame problem for me: He was a terrific pitcher. But when you have a borderline Hall of Fame case, I think you need to bring something extra, something that separates you from all the other borderline Hall of Fame cases. As I have grown older, I have come to believe that greatness is not simply a line ... Willie Mays wasn't great simply because he hit well and fielded well and ran well. Greatness is a multilayered, three dimensional thing. Brown's often brilliant pitching earns him his day in court, but in the end, is the verdict that he he great? He was at points in his career. But he was also a surly pitcher who did not seem to add much to team chemistry, and he did not distinguish himself in the postseason. He signed a gigantic contract at age 34 but did not age well, to the point where at the end he was considered an albatross. He falls short of the Hall of Fame for me, but not by much.

-- Fred McGriff: I have a soft spot in my heart for McGriff. To me, he was an awful a friendlier and shorter-lived version of Eddie Murray ... at least from an offensive perspective. Murray hit .287/.359/.476 with a 129 OPS+. McGriff hit .284/.377/.509 with a 133 OPS+. Murray played in 8 All-Star Games and started one. McGriff played in only five All-Star Games but started three. Neither won an MVP award, though Murray finished second two times. They were both very solid hitting first basemen with remarkable, almost mystical, powers of consistency.

That said, there are some important differences. Murray was a far superior defender. And Murray was good enough for long enough to hit 500 homers and amass 3,000 hits. McGriff fell just short on the homers (493) and well short on the hits (2,490). Murray's career value (66.7 WAR) is quite a bit higher than McGriff's (50.5).

I'm a big fan of Jay Jaffe's Hall of Fame posts -- I think he has the most sensible numbers approach to the Hall of Fame question by measuring a players career AND his peak. Jay's research shows McGriff falls just short of the Average Hall of Fame first baseman in both career value and peak value. To keep the Murray comparison going, Murray's peak was just a touch higher than McGriff bit it is also borderline for the Hall of Fame. But Murray's career value soars. I think in the end, when it comes to the Hall of Fame, you need to offer something sensational. A sensational peak. Sensational career totals. Something. I guess my feeling is that McGriff wasn't quite good enough for LONG enough. The vote is a regretful no. But I plan to look at it again next year -- and every year he's on the ballot.

-- Dale Murphy: People who have followed my Hall of Fame votes (this would include my mother and perhaps my father) know that Dale Murphy is my Hall of Fame weakness. I have voted for him every year. And I have done this knowing full well that he has a tragically flawed Hall of Fame case.

The problem with Murphy is that his career is almost all peak value. He had six great years. He had one or two decent years in addition, but just one or two. And everything else was pretty awful. His heights, I think, were markedly higher than Jim Rice and Andre Dawson, the last two outfielders voted into the Hall of Fame. But Dawson had nine good-but-not-great seasons; Rice had four or five. Murphy had those one or two. And that is why they are in the Hall and Murphy probably won't get there.

I get that. But I keep voting for Murphy anyway. I don't know that six exceptional years is enough to make someone a Hall of Famer if they can't back it up with some value in other years. Jimmy Wynn had seven terrific seasons, and, impossibly, did not get a single Hall of Fame vote (even Tommy Helms got a vote that year). But maybe that's because people didn't appreciate Wynn's great seasons (so much of his value was tied up in his ability to walk).

People did appreciate Murphy. He won two MVP awards, he won five straight Gold Gloves, he was the singular star for the SuperStation Braves teams of the 1980s who fitfully wore the self-proclaimed mantle as "America's Team." He, as much as anyone I suspect, spread the gospel of baseball in the South with the way he played and the way he carried himself.

Murph, you probably know, began his career as a catcher. The line at the time was that one day the Braves decided he was too tall to catch. The Braves made him a first baseman, where he wasn't very good, and they came to realize that his great athletic ability might play in center field. At 6-foot-4, there was a gnawing feeling he was too tall for center field too, but at the point they had to do SOMETHING with the guy. He was 24 years old, had a gigantic hole in his swing and his position was still up in the air.

But in 1980, he had his first great year, hitting .281/349/.510 with 33 homers and he made a stunning defensive transition to center field. He was fluid, and he rarely made mistakes, and he showed off a strong arm. After an uneven strike year, he jumped into the conversation of best player in baseball. He won his first MVP in 1982 (.281/.378/.507) and his second in 1983 (.302/.393/.540 -- led league in slugging and had a 30-30 season). He was helped out by his ballpark -- the affectionately named Launching Pad -- and a great defensive reputation that people still argue about (he won Gold Gloves both years but some say Murphy did not have enough range to play center). Still, he was legitimately great both those years, and pretty close to great the next two years after. And he probably had his best season in 1987 when he hit .295/.417/.580 with 44 home runs and a good transition to right field.

And then ... he fell off a cliff. He didn't just fall a cliff, he did a Wile E. Coyote fall off a cliff and then had a big chunk of rock fall on top of him. After his a decent 1988, he hit .236/.304/.403/.388 the rest of his career was was just barely above replacement level.

Is that enough to make a Hall of Fame career? Most would say no. I wrote yesterday that I loathe the Hall of Fame character clause and I do. But if it is going to be there -- and I have no illusions that it will ever go away -- shouldn't it be there to REWARD class and dignity as much as to PUNISH players who don't quite live up to standards? Bill James suggests -- and I concur -- that the clause may have been a direct effort to reward a player like Eddie Grant, a light hitting infielder from the early part of the 20th Century who hit .249/.300/.295 over 10 seasons for four teams from 1905 to 1915. But he went to Harvard, was widely respected in baseball, and he gave the last full measure of devotion when he died in battle in France during World War I. Our guess is that Kenesaw Mountain Landis may have written the Hall of Fame character clause to encourage people to vote for Eddie Grant. Few actually bought the argument -- Grant never received more than three votes. But it seems likely the clause was not put in to exclude as much as INCLUDE.

Murphy tried to be a role model ... he took that seriously. He was a class act, and he promoted the best of the game with the way he played and the way he carried himself. Like Musial, I would say you probably can't find anyone who dealt with Dale Murphy -- teammates, fans, media, anyone -- who did not love and admire the guy. I'm not saying this alone should get him into the Hall of fame. But I do think it can be part of his case.

I'm under no illusions that Murphy will ever get any Hall of Fame momentum. He is drawing fewer votes now than he did his first couple of years, and I suspect with the loaded ballot this year he will take a big drop. I was torn about who to give my 10th vote to ... but in the end I decided to stick with Murphy for another year. At his peak, he was a Hall of Famer, and a six-year peak is pretty strong historically. I voted yes.

But, yes, I'll admit, I wish he'd had a few even reasonably productive years after age 32. If he did, I think he'd be a solid Hall of Famer. Through age 31, his numbers compared very well with Reggie Jackson and Dave Winfield. Those guys had a second act. Murphy decidedly did not. It seems silly that what is keeping Murphy out of the Hall of Fame is not additional greatness but rather a few years of solid mediocrity. But baseball is a tricky game.

-- Rafael Palmeiro: The question that I suppose can be asked here is -- should Rafael Palmeiro's positive drug test have a different impact on Hall of Fame voters than the drug noise the surrounds Mark McGwire Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Jason Giambi, Alex Rodriguez and so on?

Maybe. Maybe not. I can't tell anymore. I guess the point is that none of those others ever failed a drug test ... or at least not a drug test where the results were to be made public. More to the point, Palmeiro's failed drug test came at a time when baseball WAS testing. I think we can argue nonstop for the next month about what the baseball guru's stance was about steroids in the 1990s. But to me the trump card is that, for whatever reason, baseball did not test. And because baseball was not testing, I do not think they can make any legitimate claim that they were trying to discourage players from using steroids.

But then steroids in baseball became a real embarrassment, and testing was instituted, and by then there could be no mistaking baseball's stance: They wanted performance enhancing drugs out of the game. That's when Palmeiro tested positive. It is not impossible -- or even entirely improbable -- that it was a false positive (as Palmeiro claims). These things DO happen more than anyone wants to admit. But considering that Palmeiro was widely viewed as a steroid user, and considering that he was probably the most obnoxious of the deniers at the Congressional Hearing, he certainly wasn't going to get the benefit of the public doubt.

I vote for Mark McGwire, so I am openly voting for someone who has admitted taking steroids. Is Palmeiro different because of the timing, because he tested positive when steroids was CLEARLY AND INDISPUTABLY against the rules? Maybe. Maybe not. Like I say, I can't tell anymore. Palmeiro's Hall of Fame case is pretty clear and pretty forceful from a career perspective. He had 3,000 hits AND 500 home runs, and both of those have been magic Hall of Fame numbers.

But ... again I turn to Jay Jaffe. Rafael Palmeiro's peak just wasn't quite Hall of Fame. His career numbers are awesome, as mentioned, but he played in one of the greatest offensive offensive eras in baseball history, and he spent his career in terrific hitters parks. In many ways, I think he is simply Fred McGriff in a more favorable hitting environment. Look at their neutralized statistics (that is putting their numbers into a 716-run environment):

McGriff: .284/.377/.511
Palmeiro: .287/.369/.510

Comme ci, comme ca.

There are players in the Hall of Fame with great career numbers and uninspiring peaks. I think Palmeiro has a powerful case because of those career numbers, but it's a borderline case. And the big question is: If Rafael Palmeiro has a borderline case, does his positive drug test tilt the scales to "No?"

With my ballot bursting already, I decided this year: No.

-- Larry Walker: How good does someone have to hit at Coors Field to be considered an all-time great? It's a fascinating question. It's funny -- Coors Field seems to be the first park that has actually altered how the average fans views baseball players. Whenever you would tell people that, say, Jim Rice's numbers or Don Drysdale's numbers or, yes, Dale Murphy's numbers were greatly aided by their home park, people would generally shrug. So what? But I get the impression that many people, maybe even most people, look at Larry Walker's great numbers and think only "Yeah, mirage, Coors Field."

The player whose Hall of Fame election probably has most to do with home park was Chuck Klein. From 1928-33, Klein played in the absurd Baker Bowl ... one of the most ridiculous hitters parks in baseball history. The right field wall was only 280 feet from home plate, and right center was only 300 feet away. It was so ludicrously close to home plate, that they kept adding height to it just to give it some semblance of fairness. They never could make it tall enough.

Here is what Chuck Klein hit at the Baker Bowl:

1929: .391/.434/.734 with 25 doubles and 25 homers in 71 games.
1930: .439/.483/.794 with 32 doubles and 26 homers in 77 games.
1931: .401/.469/.740 with 23 doubles and 22 homers in 76 games.
1932: .423/.464/.799 with 26 doubles and 25 homers in 81 games.
1933: .467/.516/.789 with 25 doubles and 17 homers in 74 games.

OK, that's just laughable, right?* In those five years, He led the league in homers four times, in doubles twice, in runs three times, in RBIs twice and he won the triple crown in 1933 (despite hitting .280/.338/.436 on the road). Well, OF COURSE he did. He was traded to the Cubs for three players and $65,000 in 1933. And he never led the league in anything again. He hit .278/.343/.447 the rest of his career.

*Other great Baker Bowl feats:

-- In 1929, Lefty O'Doul -- who was trying to remake himself as a hitter after his pitching career was halted by an arm injury -- led the league with a .398 batting average. He hit .453 at the Baker Bowl.

-- In 1930, the entire Philadelphia team hit .344 at the Baker Bowl.

-- That's OK. In 1939, opponents hit .359 at the Baker Bowl.

Chuck Klein is in the Hall of Fame, though it should be said he never got much support from the writers. The veteran's committee voted him in. He was inducted in 1980, long after his death in 1958. That always makes me sad. If you're going to put a man in the Hall of Fame, you should put him in while he's alive and can celebrate it.

Larry Walker put up three or four of the most remarkable offensive seasons in baseball history while playing in the pre-humidor Coors Field. I've tried to make this point many times in many ways, but I don't know if I ever have fully made it: The number effects that people attribute to steroids can be reproduced simply and legally with a great hitters park or a livelier baseball. Walker was a very good player in Montreal from 1990 to 1994 -- his OPS+ was 130, and in 1994 he hit .322 and led the league in doubles with 44. He could hit a baseball hard.

Then he went to Coors and in 1997 he hit .366 with 46 doubles, 49 homers ... you know how many other players in baseball history have hit .350 or better with 45 doubles AND 45 homers in the same season? One. Lou Gehrig in 1927. It was pure lunacy.

So what did Walker do the next year? He hit .363. And the next? He hit .379/.458/.710 -- you bet, he led the National League in the all three of those splits. In 2001, he hit .350 (led the league again) with 38 homers, 123 RBIs, 107 runs scored. In all, he hit .334/.425/.618 his years in Colorado.

How much of that was Coors Field? A lot of it. Over his career, Walker hit .381 at Coors Field and he slugged .710. Overall, Walker hit 70 points better at home (.348 to .278) and slugged 142 points higher at home (.637 to .495).

But if you have done your math, you know that I'm voting for Walker. I think he was a great all around player. His 140 career OPS+ -- and that, of course, takes into account his ballpark -- is significantly better than Dawson (119), Rickey Henderson (127), Rice (128), Tony Gwynn (132), Dave Winfield (130) and Kirby Puckett (124) -- the outfielders who have been voted in since 2000. Obviously, they each have different cases (Henderson's OPS+ is entirely beside the point when looking at his career), but it shows how good a hitter Walker was. His .278/.370/.495 split for road game certainly pales against his home numbers, but those are still very good road numbers -- yes, he played in a good offensive era, but it's worth point out that his road on-base percentage is better than George Brett's CAREER on-base percentage, and that .495 road slugging is higher than Reggie Jackson's CAREER slugging.

Walker was also a fabulous right fielder, based both on reputation (seven Gold Gloves) and numbers (his defensive WAR is 9.6 which is very high). He was an outstanding base runner and base stealer (he stole 230 bases at a 75% rate).

There are not many players in baseball history who were really good at everything. Larry Walker was really good at everything. Injuries shortened and interrupted his career, and he definitely got a huge numbers boost from his home park. But the Larry Walker I remember hit the ball hard, ran the bases brilliantly, played superior defense and kept finding ways to be productive even as his body was breaking down on him. He had a huge peak, and took advantage of his home ballpark to put up some of the best seasons in baseball history. For that, he got my 10th and final vote.


67 comments:

  1. "But here are a couple of key differences: Schilling's strikeout-to-walk (3,116 to 711) is is historic, the best ratio since 1900. I mentioned above that many people would say a pitcher's No. 1 goal is preventing runs, but the numbers strongly suggest that there are only so many ways a pitcher can do this -- walks and strikeouts are two of the very few things somewhat within a pitcher's control. Brown's strikeout-to-walk is is very good too (2,397 to 901) but obviously not in Schilling's stratosphere. When you consider they are both borderline Hall of Fame choices, this seems a big advantage for Schilling."

    Joe, if you're going delve into component stats to try to separate close cases, you have to look at all the component stats.

    You say two of the few things pitchers control are strikeouts and walks. I'm sure I don't need to tell you that the third is home runs. Schilling allowed home runs at a much higher rate over his career.

    Another thing pitchers control to an extent is the batted ball types. Brown was an excellent ground ball pitcher.

    So if you're going to give Schilling credit for his K/BB, I don't understand why you didn't give it to Brown for the things he did well.

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  2. What hurts Larry Walker's case for me, far more than Coors, is his durability. He played more than 140 games just 4 times, more than 150 just once. His Baseballreference to neutralize his stats, his career numbers look more a lot like the neutralized numbers of Jim Edmonds(a damn interesting hall of fame case himself who I think should absolutely make it in). This difference is that Walker was a corner outfielder....but a very very excellent corner outfielder who probably could have played center just fine....but as fine as Edmonds?

    Hmm, I started this post to make a case against Walker, now I'm just confused...

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  3. Ah, if only Joe had changed his limit from 3000 IP and a 121 or better ERA+, over to 2898.2 IP, then he would have had to discuss David Cone as well when talking about Kevin Brown. Cone is really, really close to Joe's cutoff...he misses by a scant 101.1 IP. I guess that shows how good Cone was though to be in that company. If the limit gets changed to 2800 IP and 121 or better ERA+, Cone, Dave Stieb, Pedro and Tommy Bridges would be added to the list.

    In any case, thanks for the HOF columns, Joe. I've enjoyed them.

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  4. You know what my tie-breaker would be for Walker? Best player to ever come out of Canada. That's a feat, no? The country had two teams for the longest time.

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  5. Like Musial, I would say you probably can't find anyone who dealt with Dale Murphy -- teammates, fans, media, anyone -- who did not love and admire the guy.
    ***
    I once saw Murphy publicly extol the virtues of a homophobic proclamation. He subsequently led young people in distributing a thoroughly racist text. Joe must travel in extremely bigoted circles.

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  6. Joe, I think you've got it exactly right- or at least closer than any other ballot I've seen. I think Walker's the ninth-best guy on the ballot, and after that it's either Murphy or Palmeiro. The cut line is mostly academic, of course, since after Alomar and probably Blyleven, only Bagwell and Larkin might come close to induction this year.

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  7. Great ballot and great arguments. And a real treat to see all your reasoning, pro and con. Thanks!

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  8. Brian, what was the "homophobic proclamation"? What was the "thoroughly racist text"? We wait anxiously for the specifics. I'm sure you wouldn't be withholding that information in order to mislead.

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  10. At the end of the day, my ballot looks quite a bit like yours (although I suspect I thought a lot less about mine :)

    Alomar
    Blyleven
    Larkin
    Edgar Martinez
    Fred McGriff - total Blue Jay homer vote ;)
    Jack Morris - Just 'cause :)
    Dale Murphy
    Tim Raines
    Alan Trammell
    Larry Walker - total Canadian homer vote ;)

    Thanks for the interesting week - it's made suffering through this cold a little more tolerable.

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  11. When I think of Walker, I think of how voters treated Dwight Evans (too nice) and Dick Allen (too mean). I think a lot of voters write off Walker not just because of Coors, but because of his goofy personality.

    That's a shame, because he could flat out hit. After he left Montreal he could just have easily gone to, say, Fenway. Would Boston Red Sox player Larry Walker and his ridiculous home/road splits be a Hall of Famer?

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  12. On McGriff, he is clearly unfairly tossed into the big-offense steroid era.

    At McGriff's peak, his run of 30+ home run seasons was considered a major accomplishment. If anything, McGriff is going to suffer due to an era that he doesn't really belong in.

    Even so, McGriff is one of only 14 players to have 15 seasons with 20+ home runs, a run that notably started in 1987.

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  13. Well, Murphy is a Mormon, and they do have a bit of a history. That said, I hope Brian is being sarcastic.

    Joe, while you're going beyond ERA and ERA+, please note that Schilling allowed 65 unearned runs, and Brown allowed 172. If we think in terms of "RA" rather than "ERA", Brown and Schilling switch places: Schilling 3.64, Brown 3.75. That's probably not quite fair, but straight ERA isn't quite fair either.

    That said, I'd have no problem with Brown being in... just wanted to point that out, because I think it's important. BTW, I don't think Brown's two years as a Yankee are realistically part of his HOF case, and if you take those out, his postseason record is 4-4, 3.61. Still not exceptional (and he still stunk in the World Series), but a little better, anyway...

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  14. I'm glad you included Walker. I remember him as one of the best all around players in baseball over a long peak, and the numbers support this. He's not getting enough support IMO.

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  15. Joe-
    You spend a lot of time getting on people for ignoring the numbers and going with things like memorable postseason performances when it comes to Bert/Jack, but you don't seem to have much of an issue with that line of thinking for Kevin/Curt.

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  16. A great and provocative series of posts. I'd love to hear now who you predict will actually get in this year.

    My hunch is that there will be two inductees, Alomar and Blyleven, and that Larkin and Bagwell will fall a bit shy (in the 60% to 70% range).

    Here's the link to last year's balloting results: http://community.baseballhall.org/page.aspx?pid=569

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  17. @Marco: I think you are misreading what Joe is saying. With respect to Schilling, he has a borderline HoF case, so that his post-season heroics put him over the line. As it relates to Morris, Joe (and numerous others) are saying he is *not* a borderline case - he's just not a HoF player - full stop. So as admirable as his Game 7 performance was (and it goes a long way, btw, towards making us forget his otherwise ordinariness in the playoffs), it doesn't put Jack Morris over the line because he wasn't at the line to begin with.

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  18. Gotta second Xave's mention of Brown's home run prevention above. Brown was a groundball pitcher who also had a fantastic strikeout to walk ratio. Thus over his career, he allowed 206 homers (.6 / 9IP), while Schilling allowed 347 (1.0 / 9 IP). So really, his peripherals are just as impressive as Schilling's. However, mostly because he was a ground ball pitcher, he gave up 172 unearned runs in his career, as opposed to the 65 unearned Schilling allowed.

    In the end, I think you are underrating the brilliance of Brown at his peak. From 1996-2000, he threw 1209 2/3 innings (an average of 242 per year) with a 165 ERA+ (a total Schilling never reached in any single year).

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  19. I should add that I think both Schilling and Brown are easy hall of famers, and I understand not voting for Brown this year because there are so many good candidates.

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  20. Aside from the steroids issue, the argument against Palmeiro seems to be that he was a numbers compiler without a Hall of Fame peak. And this differs from Bert Blyleven because...?

    Also, on Kevin Brown, so what if Schilling's K/BB ratio was better. The pitcher's job is to get hitters out, not necessarily to strike them out. Over their entire careers, Schilling and Brown are essentially identical, except for the post-season stats. And if we want to start inducting borderline candidates over post-season heroics, then we're back to Jack Morris again.

    I'm fine with keeping Brown out. But if we do, we need to keep Schilling out, too, or else we need to re-name it the Hall of Post-Season Fame.

    As for Dale Murphy, well, we've all got our weaknesses. At least you acknowledge that you're wrong about him. :)

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  21. I don't really care who used steroids, and I think Palmeiro is a no-brainer first ballot Hall of Famer, but let's not pretend he wasn't dirty and that he may have been the victim of a false positive.

    If you're truly innocent, especially after that performance before Congress, here's what you say: "I swear to you, to God, on my children's lives that I have never, ever, ever taken steroids. Here, someone get a needle, I'll take the test right now."

    Here's what you don't say, "Miguel Tejada must have given me a tainted vial of Vitamin B."

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  23. Rafael Palmeiro is 10th all-time in total bases.

    10th.

    All-time.

    That is all.

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  24. Thank you very much for this series. It was tactful to give it the timing you did.

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  25. Yeah, I'm with rdcobb. I don't care about Palmeiro's less than stellar peak due to his staggering career totals. I'm surprised that you left him off the ballot, Joe.

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  26. I think Palmeiro is probably a HoF player, but I also think that he is going to get the worst of the steroid punishments. While other guys have admitted to it or been contrite, he has been neither. For people who think steroids are a huge deal (and I don't), this is a big deal. For people who are borderline on steroid guys, it is a big deal. His lack of contrition, along with the Congress thing will always hurt him, even if no one admits it. He STILL says he doesn't know what happened, and no one is buying the B12 injection garbage. Furthermore, while Sosa and McGwire and the other steroid guys at least tried to avoid lying (even if ti was still shameful), Palmeiro REALLY lied. Bad. And got caught. I suspect that if he had wiggled out of admitting something, he would probably be in a different boat.

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  27. @rodgerscolin: I'll give Walker as the best Canadian POSITION player, but Ferguson Jenkins was by far the best Canadian to play baseball in the major leagues.

    I really hate this "numbers compiler" argument. It's as stupid as "clogging up the bases".

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  28. I think Ben B. and Xave are slightly off the mark on Brown v. Schilling and HR rates. Isn't it true that most pitchers' HR/FB rates normalize to a certain rate (like around 10%) and that pitchers truly can't control their HR rates? Guess what: Brown's HR/FB is 10.0%; Schilling's HR/FB is 10.5%. On the other hand, we SHOULD be giving credit to Brown's superior ability to induce ground balls (53.6% to Schilling's 39.5%).

    There's another hitch in this, though: we do not have the batted ball data for the entire careers of Brown and Schilling: we only have the last four and six years, respectively, of batted ball data for these two pitchers. Therefore, it may not be fair to include Schilling's inferior GB rate in the argument (although it is probably a safe assumption that Brown was better at inducing GBs than Schilling over the course of their respective careers).

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  29. In reading about Dale Murphy, it's clear he did a lot of good outside of the game, what with the make a wish foundation, visiting kids in hospitals, etc.

    BUT...it's hard to ignore the Mormon thing. He clearly stands for and believes in his version of religion, and his version of religion is blatantly racist.

    He also comes across as extremely "holier than thou" when talking about steroids, and that is another trait of his religion. The thinking that they are coming from a higher moral ground due in part to the color of their skin.

    So in my opinion, at best his off field goodness is negated, leaving only his on field stats to be considered.

    In my mind he's not a HOF player.

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  30. The "number compiler" knock bugs me as well. Raffy had a plenty good enough peak regardless of what any metric says. To wit:

    From 1993-2003, tossing out the strike year, Palmeiro averaged 41 HR and 119 RBI.

    And he's 10th all-time in total bases. I cannot say that enough. Look at this list and tell me that his case is in any way "borderline":

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/TB_career.shtml

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  31. My ballot was:
    Alomar
    Bagwell
    Blyleven
    Larkin
    Raines
    Walker

    Trammel was the hardest omission. I keep going back & forth on him. He's borderline for me, and I have resolved to keep an open mind.

    Walker was the toughest addition, and I can't decide if he should be there or not and this year I came down in favor. The numbers are there, I think. He also gets that tipping point of memory, where you recall him as the guy who scared you everywhere: at the plate, on the bases, running down a fly, gunning down a runner...Walker was a complete ballplayer. Even adjusting for Coors, even adjusting for the injuries, he was a feared player and a truly great one.

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  32. In the end I came around on the idea that Jack Morris didn't deserve, but Bert does.
    What about McGriff though? He was the keystone of the last great division race, labored on some crap teams before that, was the NL Fear Factor for a decent stretch of years and certainly has to get a "good citizen" bump. McGriff is at least as worthy as Larry Walker, and I trust any "10 Cap" votes for one at the cost of the other would switch over given the chance.

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  33. @rdcobb - the 41 HR a year thing sounded so outlandish I had to check it myself, and I was totally surprised that that was the case. Incredible numbers. There was also the 95 year where he a bunch of homers, 100 RBI, OPS+ 145, batted 310, and wasn't even an all-star. In fact, he had a lot of all-star years with no recognition. That suggests his Hall case will be hurt because he lacks the awards, which is dumb.

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  34. @Luke Martinez: You're absolutely right. The mere 4 AS appearances is held against him, but he got MVP votes in SEVEN years in which he wasn't an All-Star. So it isn't like he wasn't considered one of the very best players in the league those years.

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  35. What religion was Jack Morris? Blyleven? Apparently it's vitally important to know these things to appropriately assess HoF candidacy. Anybody able to supply that information? Maybe ol' Jack will get a boost.

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  36. If I'm honest, I think that had Trammell or Blyleven or Alomar gone in when they should have (ie: before friggin' 2011, or never), Palmeiro would be on Joe's ballot.

    He's borderline only on a ballot clogged by the poor voting of others.

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  37. @rdcobb: There is no doubt that if the steroids issue never came up, Palmeiro would be a slam dunk choice. His career numbers are staggering I don't care what era he played in. It all depends on your roid stance. I would vote for him and any other impact guy from the era. If you are against him for HOF induction then your follow up arguments are:

    1. His contemporaries at 1B. His career spanned the years of a lot of guys who had bigger (or at least more celebrated) peaks. It's easy to get lost in the shuffle when you play in a period that spans the primes of as Frank Thomas, Mo Vaughn, Big Mac, Helton, Thome, Bagwell, Cecil Fielder, Giambi, McGriff, Galaraga and Delgado to name a few. There is an attic full of MVP, Silver Slugger, and Hank Aaron awards in that group. Even lesser guys like Olerud, Karros, Sweeney, and Tino each mixed a monster year or two. Fact is first base was an absurdly loaded position on the field during era. And that's just the one position. Forget about the positions that first basemen are often grouped with when comparing offensive stats like the corner outfield positions, 3B, and DH.

    2. He played on a lot of teams that were either bad or got their brains beat in by the Yankees. He never played in the World Series and his postseason line of .244/.308/.451 in 91 plate appearances isn't exactly great.

    3. He was always overshadowed and was never percieved as the best player, at not only his own position, but even on his own team. Even in his best year of 99' when his line was .324/420/630 with 47 homers and 148 RBI his teammate Pudge won the MVP. He played with a staggering number of guys who had won an MVP at some point in their careers- Pudge, A-Rod, Tejada, Juan Gonzalez, Ripken and Albert Belle could have easily won three.

    All this leads to why people say he hit the 3000/500 milestones "quietly" I'd put him but if you wanna argue against him aside from steriods it begins above.

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  38. Thanks for the extended ballot mix, Joe. Makes the off-season go by very quickly. Happy New Year.

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  39. Palmeiro also played with Sandberg, Sosa, and Canseco, and Murray, Maddux, and Alomar finished top three.

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  40. Blyleven was a moonie, and Morris was a religion of one.

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  41. Let us say that Jack Morris is a borderline HOF case, even though he is not ranked higher than 30th for anything positive he did in his career as a pitcher except putouts as a pitcher. He is in the top 30 for bad things as a pitcher: wild pitches, earned runs, home runs allowed, walks. So historically he wasn't better at the good things than the bad things. He never had a season of 200 IP with an ERA+ of 130. His best ERA in a season where he pitched a lot (200+ innings) was 3.27. Jack Morris led the league in IP... once. In CG once. In shutouts once. In strikeouts once (the year he led in IP). He also led in walks once, in earned runs allowed once, in wild pitches SIX times. The year he led in CG (and ER allowed) he had an ERA+ of 89, hardly an endorsing year for a HOF caliber career.

    But he had that one great postseason game, and great moments are supposed to be tie breakers. Unfortunately, his career postseason ERA was only 3.80, which is hardly a tie breaker, about the same as his regular season ERA. His career postseason record was 7-4, again hardly a ringing endorsement (like 5-1 might be). Take away his one shutout, and he's a 6-4 postseason pitcher with an ERA of 4.26.

    So Morris's entire HOF consideration seems to be he had one great game.

    Don Larsen had a better World Series game and isn't in the HOF. Orel Hershiser has a Cy Young award, a major pitching record (consecutive scoreless innings), a postseason record of 8-3 (better than 7-4) and a postseason ERA of 2.59 (far better than 3.80) with two postseason shutouts and even a postseason save in 1988. Hershiser led the NL in IP three years in a row with 130+ ERA+ all three, and his best season was 239 IP with an ERA+ of 171, and he isn't in the HOF. Neither should Morris be.

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  42. I will never vote for Larry Walker because he stole Mike Piazza's MVP award. I know that's not fair to Walker, because he didn't vote for MVP. But in my mind, if Piazza had won the MVP he deserved for about the best offensive season ever by a catcher (Walker's MVP season in Coors does not come close to the best ever for a right fielder) then maybe the Dodgers would not have traded the best Dodger hitter I ever got to see, and I've have gotten to see a lot more of the only Dodger hitter deserving of an MVP in my lifetime.

    Perhaps after Piazza enters the HOF I'll forgive Walker for something that isn't his fault. He was, after all, a very very good player. But I'm still putting Lee Smith on my ballot ahead of Walker.

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  43. Happy New Year Joe! Keep up the good work

    quick edit: "The other is Kevin Brown. I admit to having mixed emotions about him. He was an undeniably dominant pitchers at times in his career"

    pitcher. Thanks again for all your insight.

    "But here are a couple of key differences: Schilling's strikeout-to-walk (3,116 to 711) is is historic, the best ratio since 1900."

    is

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  44. @Ebessan I was talking more about the guys he played with during his peak. Sandberg and Maddux were way before his peak years and Sosa was at the end on an awful Baltimore team. Canseco (who Joe wrote a great piece about, but it wasn't really about him....)is actually a good one. He had just been traded to Texas from Oakland during the 92' season so expectations were high at the start of the 93' season. 93' was Palmeiro's first huge year. Canseco blew out his arm pitching but came into the year as the star player(after that debacle we will never see a star position player pitch again unless it's the 20th inning of an All-Star game... even then it will be Ryan Ludwick or Marlon Byrd or another Non-Star All-Star) I also forgot about Ken Caminiti.

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  45. I was looking at last year's voting, and I'd love Joe to talk about how Robin Ventura got 7 votes for the Hall of Fame. I'd love to hear any seven people on Earth argue for that one.

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  46. Edit Suggestion: The second sentence of the McGriff write up: "To me, he was an awful a friendlier and shorter-lived version of Eddie Murray ... at least from an offensive perspective." huh? I'm sure you intended the "a" to be something else.

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  47. @ Luke Martinez: Those sevem must have covered his college days.

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  48. @Luke Martinez

    You see guys who are in no way deserving get votes every year. It's normally writers voting for guys they covered out of sentiment. Even if a guy doesn't get elected, getting votes must be nice for him. Jim Deshaies even campaigned to get a single vote. (It worked, a Houston writer voted for him.)

    Robin Ventura is hardly the worst player to get HOF votes. He fell just short of 300 HR's and drove in more than 1,100 runs. He also won 6 Gold Gloves.

    Guys less deserving than Ventura to have received HOF votes in recent years include David Segui, Ellis Burks, Rob Nen, Travis Fryman, Todd Stottlemyre, Dante Bichette, Walt Weiss, Hal Morris, Chili Davis, Terry Steinbach, Darren Daulton, Mark Davis, Tom Browning and Steve Bedrosian.

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  49. Ventura has a surprisingly good HoF case. 9th all-time among 3B in OPS+, 10th in bWAR, 15th in fWAR, 6 gold gloves (only 3 3B in history with more), one of the top defensive 3B of all time. The case can be made that he's one of the top-15 3B in MLB history, and it's a pretty good case. If you believe that he's one of the best defensively to play 3B, he's a reasonable borderline candidate.

    The HoF has traditionally messed up 3B voting pretty bad, IMO. He's pretty clearly better than 4 of the 11 MLB 3B already inducted to the HoF (which in itself is not a good case to make, but Ventura would not lower the bar for 3B in the HoF).

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  50. I think McGriff is getting a raw deal because he played in the steroids era. By all appearances, he did not get involved in the PED craze. McGriff continued to post very good numbers year in & year out, yet those numbers looked less impressive over time as steroid use exploded. In 1989 his .924 OPS led the AL. Ten years later, his .957 OPS ranked only 13th. If you level the playing field, its easy to imagine McGriff ranking in the top 10 in many categories for many more seasons. His OPS+ would be better. He would have made more All-Star teams & picked up more MVP votes. He may even rank among the top 20 HR hitters of all time. It just seems to me that if any voter is going to penalize any candidate in any way for PED use, then you HAVE to reward the worthy candidates from the era who were clean. You can't have it both ways. In any other era, a player with 493 HR & a career OBP of .377 is an obvious Hall of Famer. Fred McGriff should be as well.

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  51. 1) I agree with Joe that Larry Walker is worthy of a 9th or 10th place on the ballot.

    2) Players mature or get opportunities at different ages.

    Those things said, the accomplishments of Tim Raines and Larry Walker in their age 22-27 seasons at Montreal. (After that, their careers left Montreal and took different trajectories.)

    Raines: 4125 pa, 1530 xob, .310/.397/.449/.846, ops+ 135, 370 s-cs.

    Walker: 2690 pa, 957 xob, .281/.357/.483/.839, ops+ 128, 63 s-cs.

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  52. Joe - what a wonderful week of reading. It was a beautiful walk down memory lane.

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  53. OnceinDC and DB, did you not read this "... and I'm exhausted. I have written about 15,000 words about the Hall of Fame already this week"?

    Do your trainspotting elsewhere.

    — Graphite

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  54. You know, at the time Palmeiro tested positive, I, too, thought he was a terrible human being, throwing his teammate, Tejada, under the bus like that, and not taking responsibility for his own actions.

    But since then, Tejada ended up in the Mitchell Report and seems to have been a user himself, Palmeiro continues to insist he never used, and it just seems more and more likely that a false positive (or a tainted B12 shot) is a real possibility.

    The fact is we can never know. All we can know is that he tested positive and was suspended for it. And if that made him inelligible, fine.

    But it didn't. And his numbers flat out speak for themselves. His career numbers are as good as pretty much anyone but about 10-15 guys in the history of the game.

    I am really worried that Raffy isn't even going to get the votes necessary to stay on the ballot. And that would be a travesty.

    People need to move past the steroids and determine their HOFers by the numbers. They are really the only objective means of sifting through the good ones from the great ones.

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  55. Klein also held the record for outfield assists with 44, since he had the short home outfield, I think.

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  56. We had nine out of ten the same, Joe. I will not vote for Mark Mcgwire in the same year as his late and lame apology. If he is not voted in I will vote for him eventually. (I know you feel it was more noble.) Fred Mcgriff was my 10th. (I feel long consistent careers at power positions are often overlooked because of the position played and the lack of an MVP year.)Kevin Brown and Dave Parker were also considered. Kevin, as you noted, is underrated and Parker was equal or better than Rice and Dawson. (He does have the old style drug thing hanging over his head.)

    I feel that voters should be required to vote for 10. This keeps great players (Lou Whitaker comes to mind in recent years, but there is a long list.) from falling off the ballot in their first year, particularly if there are a few no brainers on their ballot that year. I don't think it would make the Hall that much bigger, as people will use some of their votes on favorite players, new guys, or guys that are nearing the end of their eligibility while not voting for THAT guy. (Whoever it is that gets alot of support that they really disagree with- in your case Morris and previously Rice)

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  57. @Joseph I agree man. Joe is a brilliant writer. He doesn't need his readers editing his work. His posts are rough drafts. Go to SI if the typos are an issue.

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  58. "...but it's worth point out that his road on-base percentage is better than George Brett's CAREER on-base percentage, and that .495 road slugging is higher than Reggie Jackson's CAREER slugging."
    ------------

    Oh, you had me at hello, Joe, but you lost me with that line above. You're trying to get too tricky to make your case for Walker, since Walker's .495 SLG on the road is not all that impressive given context, while Jackson's is. That said, I do think Walker deserves to make the Hall. As we've seen with other players, including most recently Matt Holliday, Coors gives and takes. While it makes a hitter great at home, the adjustment to hitting on the road is more difficult, and we do see players once they leave Coors still put up good numbers and their road numbers improve. Walker was already a very good hitter when he showed up in Denver, and had his peak years there. He would have been a great player if he stayed in Montreal, or went to some other non-Coors city. His final stats would look different, but I think they'd be enough to make the Hall.

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  59. @Bob:
    "Oh, you had me at hello, Joe, but you lost me with that line above. You're trying to get too tricky to make your case for Walker, since Walker's .495 SLG on the road is not all that impressive given context, while Jackson's is."

    Considering that Brett's career OPS+ is 135 and Jackson's is 139, and that both of them were/are no-brainer Hall of Famers*, I'd say that yes, Walker's non-Coors Field OBPs and Slugging being greater than theirs is impressive, regardless of Walker's era. Note also: Walker's career OPS+ is higher than Brett's and Jackson's.

    *This is the key to the argument: that they're not borderline HoFers, they're George Brett and Reggie Jackson.

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  60. Nice to see someone puts more thought into this process than "I just don't think the guy feels like a hall of famer" and also doesn't pretend to be some sort of moral standard-bearer. Enjoyable read.
    Incidentally, if I had a ballot:
    Alomar
    Larkin
    Blyleven
    Raines
    Bagwell
    Martinez
    Morris (probably my most controversial pick among stat-geeks, but will we ever again see a guy be the ace on three world series champs for three different franchises? If you think winning championships matters then jack morris belongs in the HOF)

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  61. I have always been inclined to believe Palmeiro, at least about the false positive (less inclined to believe that he never, ever used), since he was in his last year, knew they were testing, and had just testified before Congress. Then the Mitchell Report revealed Tejada to be a big-time user/trafficker. I don't take steroids into account much in my thinking, but I would vote for Palmeiro easily, because I really don't think the positive test holds any more weight than the innuendo that surrounds other candidates.

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  62. FBC, Stephens is dead on about this. It's true that star athletes, like celebrities and politicians, can be pretty brazen sometimes, but Palmeiro's positive just made no sense at all. The main reason Raffy was playing that year was for his legacy - he was chasing 3,000 hits - why would he risk that by using? It just never made sense to me.

    And, anyway, Palmeiro did not get a lifetime ban. He was suspended and then duly reinstated. I don't think it's fair for voters to mete out extra punishment. Especially when they let wife beaters, bigots, and admitted users of other illegal drugs into the Hall. Joe, you've talked about how the character clause drives you nuts, so why are you invoking it now? Be consistent.

    All of this wouldn't matter if Palmeiro was a no-doubt HoFer - I happen to think he is, but there's clearly no consensus. The charge of "numbers compiler" seems to me to be weird. It has always seemed to me to be more impressive when someone was excellent over a very long stretch (which Raffy was) than someone who was otherworldly for a few short years (ahem, Murphy). Same with the "never considered the best player on his own team" charge. You think Tony Perez ever was? Or Gary Carter?

    It'll be a shame if Palmeiro falls off the ballot. Pretending that he didn't have the career he did would be just like pretending that Reggie Bush never played football in 2005.

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  63. If anyone is still reading this comments section, a fun quiz on hall of famers:

    http://www.sporcle.com/games/deej/worsthof

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  64. Lou Stuehl has it right about the Crime Dog. He put up 25-35 HR like clockwork, prompting Bill James to remark, after Fred had been in the big leagues about ten years, that his record was beginning to look a whole lot like a Hall of Fame profile. I remember some pundit remarking, as he fell off toward the end of his career, that he needed to be putting more time in gym during the off season. That may be the case, but it must also be remembered what putting more time in the gym actually entailed for a number of sluggers during the steroid era.

    As for Dale Murphy, his career didn't "fall off a cliff" after 1988. He was pushed off the cliff by the Braves. The team was going totally in the tank. They were awful and stayed that way until 1991. Murphy had no one on base in front of him and no protection behind him. If the Braves were to muster any offense at all, it was up to Murphy to create it. And he tried. Ruined his swing doing it. A friend of mine, in commenting on the character of the organization during that period, said they were so bad they "made a chump out of Dale Murphy". His willingness to play that role -- thereby effectively sacrificing his shot at the Hall of Fame--actually goes hand-in-hand with the very strong character attributes that Joe so values in him. So keep voting for him, Joe!

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  65. Few more things here...

    *Dale Murphy.....HAWHAWHAWHAWHAWHAW...oh man. You don't wanna vote for Dave Parker, you're still whining about Jim Rice, Harold Baines doesn't cut the mustard here for ya, but you wanna put in the Boyscout. Look--Murphy was a terrific player for about 6-7 years, had the advantage of the launching pad, played great ball all the way around. But if he gets your vote, you best be writing in the magic words 'Don Mattingly' there too. This guy was if anything even MORE borderline than either Jim Rice or Orlando Cepeda. I love statborgs. This was funny.

    *Larry Walker. You know--I never did see anyone say anything good about Big Cat Galarraga all those years he was in Denver, kept on being told his K-W rate wasn't pretty enough, he was a product of the park, etc. Ditto Mssrs. Bichette, Castilla and Burks. But now we come to a guy who has a PC enough K-W rate, and Voila! he should be in.

    Walker was a terrific all-around talent, no doubt. And like Big Cat and Dawson, came up in the monstrosity known as Olympic Stadium back when, which harmed his counting stats big-time. My only worries about Walker going in-he played 150 games 3 times in his career, he had the homefield benny at Coors Nuke'em high there, and face it---his career totals just get kinda buried amidst the rest of the big numbers from the last 15 years.

    Plus-was he a Roider? never heard him called such anymore so than Bagwell-but you gotta know the talk is out there.

    *Palmeiro. I'd actually hold my nose and vote for him despite the obvious boost to his stats by the Cattle Meds industry. When he came up, for about 5-6 years he was Mark Grace or Keith Hernandez. He wound up looking like Eddie Murray w/ more power(!), just the whole thing just didn't look right. If you're going to vote for Big Mac and/or Sosa, seems to me this guy should be put in, too. 3000 hits and 500 homers-that's just too much.

    *Crime Dog. Since when did we Not consider 490 odd homers, 1500 plus RBI and a solid glove over 20 years to be unworthy of election to the Hall? McGriff did more than enough to merit a place there. He's gonna get lost amidst all the Thomes, Big Hurts and Big Macs, sad to say, and wind up as a Vet Comm pick 24 years from now. Which is sad--the man was a terrific player.

    *Kevin Brown. Well, he was close to Curt Schilling. He was also close to Tiant, Catfish Hunter and Mickey Lolich. Use this for as much as you wanna. He'd get my vote maybe 10 years down the line after getting his betters in first, maybe. Him being a roider does come into play, and being a putz-well who cares? it's not like he was an arsonist or whatever. He took the money and ran, that's all. He'd not lower the standards of the Hall, certainly.

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  66. n the end I came around on the idea that Jack Morris didn't deserve, but Bert does.
    What about McGriff though? He was the keystone of the last great division race, labored on some crap teams before that, was the NL Fear Factor for a decent stretch of years and certainly has to get a "good citizen" bump. McGriff is at least as worthy as Larry Walker, and I trust any "10 Cap" votes for one at the cost of the other would switch over given the chance.

    Presswire

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