OK, so this is the second round of Hall of Fame week -- these are players who, for me, are good enough to merit some extra consideration for the Hall of Fame but players who didn't quite make it to the final cut.
-- Harold Baines: He played 22 seasons. In 19 of them, he posted an OPS+ between 108 and and 144. I'm not saying OPS+ is the end all statistic, but in Baines case I think it gives a very clear picture of his career. I have never been entirely sure what the phrase "professional hitter" means, but nobody in baseball history had a career quite that concentrated. Here is the list of players who had the most seasons with an OPS+ greater than 100 (average) but less than 150 (where MVP consideration often begins):
1. Harold Baines (19 seasons)
2 (tie). Tony Gwynn (17 seasons)
2 (tie). Lou Whitaker (17 seasons)
2 (tie). Dwight Evans (17 seasons)
2 (tie). Carl Yastrzemski (17 seasons)
2 (tie). Sam Rice (17 seasons)
Kind of an interesting six, isn't it? Of those six players, Gwynn, Yaz and Rice are in the Hall of Fame. But Gwynn and Yaz don't quite fit into this category because they each had multiple great seasons in addition to their many, many professional hitter years. Gwynn had three seasons with OPS+ greater than 150, and Yaz had four seasons greater than 150 including his legendary '67 season. So they don't quite fit into the Baines Professional Hitter category.
Sam Rice, however, might fit into the category. He made it to the Hall of Fame (via veteran's committee) without ever having a great OPS+ season. Sam Rice's best season was a 139 OPS+. There is nobody in the Hall of Fame quite like Sam Rice -- he did not play his first full season until he was 27, then he missed almost of his entire 28 year while the Great War was going on. He was not at all like Baines -- he was a high average hitter (he hit .330 or better six times) who rather famously never swung at the first pitcher. He rarely struck out, and he could run (he led the league in 1920 with 63 stolen bases) and he had almost no home run power, though he did hit at least 10 triples every year from 1921 to 1930. He also retired with 2,987 hits because 3,000 hits wasn't considered a milestone then.
So, yeah, Rice was a bit different. Baines was a consistency marvel. He hit between .295 and .313 11 times, hit between 20 and 29 homers 11 times, hit 29 doubles five times. Rice wasn't quite like that. But Rice IS one of the few who got into the Hall of Fame with many, many good seasons and no great ones. That is usually the Hall of Fame kiss of death. Whitaker's great consistency got him booted off the ballot after one year (one of the great Hall of Fame injustices). Evans' great consistency (he also had two seasons with OPS+ better than 150) kept him on the ballot for only three unsatisfying years. And Baines has been teetering on the ballot for four years -- he has gotten between 5 and 6% each of those four years. He could fall off the ballot this year. In many ways, that's a perfect reflection of his solid and under-appreciated career.
-- John Franco: Here's an interesting little bit of baseball trivia ... you probably know that the 1990 Cincinnati Reds had one of the greatest and most celebrated bullpens in baseball history. That year Randy Myers (2.08 ERA, 31 saves, 98 Ks in 86 2/3 innings), Rob Dibble (8 wins, 1.74 ERA, 136 Ks in 98 innings, .980 WHIP) and Norm Charlton (who was both a starter and reliever in 1990) formed what became known as the Nasty Boys, a trio of hard-throwing relievers who helped lift up what seemed an only mediocre rotation and lineup and played a huge role in the Reds' World Series championship.
But what people don't remember is that the Reds traded perhaps their BEST TWO relievers before that season. In 1988, they traded Jeff Montgomery to Kansas City for Van Snider (who probably hit the longest home run I've ever seen in person -- or anyway it seemed that way). Montgomery saved 159 games with a 2.22 ERA and a 400-to-137 strikeout to walk from 1989 to 1993.
And just before the season they traded Franco to the Mets. In return, they got Randy Myers ... who knew that would be a trade of two of the greatest lefty closers ever. It turns out that Franco and Myers are 1st and 3rd on the all-time save list for lefties
Franco saved 424 games, just two more than Billy Wagner, who seems like he will stay retired. There have not been many longtime lefty closers in baseball. There are 18 righties who have saved 300 or more games. There are only three lefties -- Franco, Wagner and Myers. And there is no lefty closer on the horizon. Brian Fuentes has saved 187 games in his career and might go on for a while longer. After him, the active lefty with the most saves is George Sherrill with 56.
Nobody seems to knows what to do with relievers on the Hall of Fame ballot. Franco was very good, and his career is comparable with fellow ballot member Lee Smith (in fact, Smith is Franco's No. 1 Baseball Reference comp, and Franco is Smith's No. 3 comp). But while Smith has been gaining at least some Hall momentum, I suspect Franco will be one and done on the ballot. These are the quirks of Hall of Fame balloting (see entry on Smith, Lee).
-- Juan Gonzalez: I got a very nice and glossy brochure in the mail a couple of weeks ago that made the Hall of Fame case for Juan Gonzalez. Well, it was in my mailbox ... but it went on the DL before I could get it into the house.
The Juan Gone hall of Fame case is not too hard to make. He won two MVPs, and he led the league in home runs two OTHER years. He hit 40-plus home runs five times. He hit 434 career homers in just 7,155 plate appearances. Among the members of the 47-member 400-club, only Albert Pujols has had fewer plate appearances than Gonzalez. That suggests pretty high impact in a short career.
He did have impact in the early part of his career, though it seems impossible to talk about Juan Gone without pointing out that few have finished their career with less dignity. I remember Juan Gonzalez absolutely quitting on the Kansas City Royals in 2004 based on a day-to-day injury that somehow ended his season. And then, bizarrely, he came back for one at-bat with Cleveland in 2005.
Here's a question: Did Gonzalez actually deserve either one of his MVP awards? It's pretty clear in 1996 he did not. That's one of the real low moments in BBWAA voting, I think. I'll show you two rows of basic numbers, you tell me who is the MVP.
Player 1: .314/.368/.643, 33 doubles, 2 triples, 47 homers, 89 runs, 144 RBIs, 145 OPS+.
Player 2: .311/.410/.623, 38 doubles, 3 triples, 48 homers, 124 runs, 148 RBis, 158 OPS+.
Is this really hard to figure? Player 2 had about 40 points of on-base percentage, more doubles, more triples, more homers, scored 35 more runs and had more RBIs. Even if your MVP voting is based on the most dubious of considerations -- homers and RBIs -- there is simply no way you could vote Player 1 over Player 2, is there? Especially when both teams made the playoffs, and Player 2's team was actually BETTER.
Player 1 is Juan Gonzalez, of course. Player 2 is Albert Belle.
Here's the thing: Belle didn't deserve the MVP in 1996. Ken Griffey had significantly better year than either of them and he played centerfield. Alex Rodriguez hit .358/.414/.631 and played shortstop. Chuck Knoblauch had a sensational year playing second base. Jim Thome had a crazy year with a .450 on-base percentage and 38 homers. Mark McGwire had an even better on-base percentage (.467) and he hit 52 homers. Brady Anderson hit 50 homers and stole 21 bases. All of them had more wins above replacement than Belle.
But I'm saying, straight up, plain as day, Juan Gone very clearly did not have as good as year as Albert Belle. Put it this way: There were 20 players who received American League MVP votes in 1996. Juan Gonzalez had the lowest WAR of the 20 (2.8). An awful choice.
Gonzalez had a better case when he won the MVP in 1998. His 5.1 WAR at least puts him in the discussion. He hit .318 with 45 home runs and a league leading 157 RBIs. He also led the league with 50 doubles.
But I still he was still the wrong choice. Gonzalez offered almost nothing as a defender or as a base runner. He almost never walked, so while hit .318 batting average looks good, his .366 on-base percentage is nothing special. Again, Albert Belle had what pretty clearly looks like the better year ... his on-base percentage was 33 points higher, he hit more home runs, he scored more runs, he was just behind in RBIs (152) and doubles (48), and he led the league in slugging.
And again, probably Belle wasn't the right choice either. Alex Rodriguez (7.9 WAR) or Derek Jeter (7.8 WAR) would almost certainly have been the best MVP choices. Really, it's kind of stunning -- Derek Jeter was still underrated in1998. How the writers could have picked anyone except a Yankee that year -- considering the Yankees won 114 games and dominated baseball all year -- is kind of baffling. People talk all the time about East Coast Bias. Show them 1998.
-- Don Mattingly: Every year, I have bring up the Bill James definition of Mattingly: 100% ballplayer. 0% bullshit.
The Mattingly Hall of Fame lobbyists almost always bring up Kirby Puckett when making their case. You can see their point. Their career numbers look similar.
Puckett: 7,831 PAs, 2,304 hits, 414 doubles, 57 triples, 207 homers, 1,071 runs, 1085 RBIs, 124 OPS+.
Mattingly: 7,721 PAs, 2,153 hits, 442 doubles, 20 triples, 222 homers, 1007 runs, 1,099 RBIs, 127 OPS+.
Quite similar. But, I actually think Puckett is a bad example for those who want to make Mattingly's case. Puckett was a center fielder and was widely viewed as a great one. Great defensive centerfielders who hit .318 with a 124 OPS+ for a career are pretty rare. Kirby Puckett was somewhat like Earl Averill and Edd Roush and Richie Ashburn, all of whom are in the Hall of fame.
On the other hand, Mattingly was a first baseman. And even though he was excellent defensively as well, that's simply not the same thing. I've written before how similar Mattingly's case is to Keith Hernandez, who got stunningly little Hall of Fame support (though he is widely viewed as the greatest defensive first baseman ever). See, centerfield is a demanding enough defensive position that most center fielders tend to be about league average hitters, maybe slightly above. Last year, 18 of the 23 centerfielders had a 109 OPS+ or less -- and the highest OPS+ was 130. First basemen on the other hand BETTER hit. Last year Last year, SEVEN first baseman had OPS+ of greater than 150 (Justin Morneau, Miguel Cabrera, Joey Votto, Albert Pujols, Paul Konerko, Kevin Youkilis and Adrian Gonzalez).
In baseball history, 28 different first baseman with 5,000 or more plate appearances have a higher OPS+ than Don Mattingly, and these include John Olerud, Bob Watson, Boog Powell, Will Clark ....
Mattingly was a terrific ballplayer. His main offensive skill -- hitting baseballs really hard -- made him one of the most fun players of his generation to watch. For four years, he was otherworldly -- from 1984-87, he hit .337 with a .560 slugging percentage and a 155 OPS+. Few have been that good. But he hit .292/.342/.424 the last eight years of his career. The real Hall of Fame argument to make is that four spectacularly great years is enough to make someone a Hall of Famer. I loved Mattingly and would love to make that case. But I just don't think four years is enough.
-- Jack Morris: OK, here we go.
I have spent way too much of my life explaining why I don't think think Jack Morris is quite a Hall of Famer. I have made the point that his 3.90 ERA would be the highest in the Hall of Fame, and I simply don't see what Morris did that would make his Hall of Fame case especially compelling beyond that. He did not win 300 (254), he did not strike out 3,000 (2,478), he did not have any historically great years (he never even finished a season with a sub-3.00 ERA). His WHIP (1.206) and strikeout to walk ratio (1.78-to-1) are nothing special.
And I've made this comparison before:
Jack Morris: 527 starts, 3.90 ERA, 105 ERA+.
Rick Reuschel: 529 starts, 3.37 ERA, 114 ERA+.
The cases made for Morris have been, in my opinion, not particularly convincing or even intellectually honest. That Morris won more games than any pitcher in the 1980s is a nice piece of trivia, but even if you stay in the fairly uninteresting realm of pitcher wins it's worth pointing out that Morris did not solely lead baseball in wins EVEN ONCE in the 1980s. Not a single time. In the strike year of 1981, if you want to count that year, his 14 wins tied him with Dennis Martinez, Tom Seaver, Pete Vuckovich and Steve McCatty for most wins. You would think even the most passionate Morris fan would not trumpet that. But there is no other year to trumpet. Other than than that year, he did not tie for the lead even a single time in the 1980s.
This would make Morris, in that pointed phrase that Morris fans seem to despise, a "compiler of stats."
The other argument, that he was a big-game pitcher, is mostly built around his gutsy Game 7 performance in the 1991 World Series. He was very good that whole series, winning Game 1 and pitching six strong innings in Game 4, but it was his 10 shutout innings in Game 7 that secured his legend. The thing is that Morris already had a reputation as a big game pitcher -- baseball people always wanted to believe in Jack Morris as force of nature. Game 7 against Atlanta in 1991 clinched that reputation forever.
Was Morris a big game pitcher? This has been argued endlessly already, and there is both supporting and opposing evidence. I think the opposing evidence tends to be a bit more convincing. Bill James last year did an interesting study about how teams did against good and bad teams. It suggests no pitcher in baseball history got more wins out of beating up bad teams than Jack Morris. He was 92-114 against the teams Bill calls Class A and Class B teams -- those are the average to better than average teams. Considering that he spent most of his career playing on a very good Detroit Tigers team, that's not too impressive.
I've written all this before, as mentioned. I guess my point here is to ask those people who think Jack Morris belongs in the Hall of Fame to PLEASE make more appealing arguments. I'll have quite a bit more to say to those who irrationally put Jack Morris on their Hall of Fame ballot but not Bert Blyleven, but for now let me just say that if I were pushing Jack Morris' Hall of Fame case I would build my case as follows:
1. Morris was a remarkably durable pitcher. He completed 175 of his 529 starts -- that's almost exactly one-third of his starts. He was, in many ways, the last of the great war-horse pitchers.
2. Morris absolutely DID have a big impact on two different postseasons -- 1984 and 1991 -- and that's a pretty rare achievement. He and Sandy Koufax are the only two pitchers to twice be named World Series MVPs, and any time you can get your name up there with Koufax you should use that for all its worth.
3. Morris won 15 or more 12 times. Only nine pitchers in baseball history have done it more. I know that's not the sort of statistic that seems to appeal to most Morris fans. I know they would prefer to mention that Morris won 20 three times to point out that he was more than just a very good pitcher for a long time, but: (1) having three 20-win seasons is not historically riveting (53 pitchers have done it at least four); (2) Morris' last 20-win season with Toronto was almost entirely built around historic run support*; (3) He WAS a very good pitcher for a long time, that really is his Hall of Fame case.
*The Blue Jays scored 5.56 runs per game for Morris -- this in a time when the league average 4.45 runs per game. Morris won five times despite allowing six runs or more.
-- John Olerud: You know, in some ways Olerud's case is similar to Mattingly's. They were both good fielding first basemen who played hard, couldn't run and, when right, hit scorching line drives all over the field. Olerud, like Mattingly, had a handful of spectacular seasons. Olerud's 1993 was actually a better year than anything Mattingly had -- he hit .363/.467/.599 with 54 doubles. I saw him play three games early that season in Cleveland, and he went seven for 12 with two home runs.
"Man," I said to my buddy Chardon Jimmy, "this guy's going to hit .400."
He was hitting .400 as late as August 2nd.
And in 1998, with the Mets, Olerud hit .354/.447/.551.
But other than those two seasons, unlike Mattingly, Olerud did not hit for high averages. He only hit .300 twice more, and just barely those years (.302 and .300). Then again, unlike Mattingly, Olerud walked a lot. Though Mattingly outhit Olerud (.307 to .295), Olerud's career on-base percentage is much higher (.398 to .358). Olerud's career was about 450 games longer, and so all of Olerud's numbers are generally greater than Mattingly's. I'd say Mattingly's four-year prime was longer and higher -- Olerud never really put two sensational years together. But Olerud's overall career had more value.
-- Dave Parker: I have to say that Parker's Hall of Fame case should take a small step forward with the elections the last two years of Jim Rice and Andre Dawson, two corner outfielders with similar Hall of Fame cases.
Rice and Parker were widely acknowledged to be the best offensive players in the game in the late 1970s.
Rice (1977-79): .320/.376/.596 with 93 doubles, 36 triples, 124 homers, 342 runs, 383 RBIs, 153 OPS+.
Parker (1977-79): .327/.390/.546 with 121 doubles, 27 triples, 76 homers, 318 runs, 299 RBIs, 150 OPS+.
Rice, of course, had the advantage of one of the best-hitting parks of the last last 50 years, the 1970s version of Fenway Park, while Parker played in the good-hitting but more neutral Three Rivers Stadium. And Parker was viewed as a fabulous defensive player (he won three Gold Gloves those three years) while Rice was not. They were quite comparable those three years -- Parker was probably better when everything is taken into context. Parker's WAR was 20.7. Rice's was 17.
Of course, their careers at that point diverged. Rice slumped somewhat but was still a good player, and he twice re-emerged as a very good player, 1983 and 1986. Parker, meanwhile, slid into a cocaine abyss and from 1981 to 1983 he had injuries and slumps and was a barely even a replacement level player. He then somewhat put his career back together, though he was no longer than lithe and deadly player who had been called "Cobra." He could not run anymore, and he was mostly a defensive liability, but he did once again hit with some force. In 1985, he banged 42 doubles, 34 homers, drove in 125 runs. He played for five different teams his last six years, a bat for hire, and he did drive in 500 more runs after he turned 35.
Was it enough? Well, for a career, Parker does have more hits than Rice, he scored more runs, he drove in more runs.
One knock on Parker's career is that he didn't get on base much ... his .339 career on-base percentage is not much above league average. But that's where Andre Dawson comes in. Dawson was elected into the Hall of Fame with .323 on-base percentage ... clearly the voters in total will not let on-base percentage stand in their way when they want to vote someone into the Hall of Fame.
I did not vote for either Rice or Dawson, and so I have never voted for Parker either. My feeling on it is that had Parker not had that three-year lull in his prime, he would have been a certain Hall of Famer. But he did have that lull. In the end, I can see the argument that Rice had a more complete career than Parker, and Dawson offered more dimensions than Parker. The three of them seemed to me to have more or less the same Hall of Fame case, but Parker was the one who lost his prime to injuries and drugs.
-- Lee Smith: Charlie Joiner is the Pro Football Hall of Fame because, when he retired in 1986, he held the record for most receptions (750) and most receiving yards (12,146). Now, Joiner was an excellent football player. But the truth is, he built those big career numbers because he happened to play for the Dan Fouts Chargers team that was a few years ahead of its time when it came to passing the football. Joiner only made three Pro Bowls. Joiner was only once named first-team All-Pro. It's possible -- probably even -- that Joiner was under-appreciated during his playing days.
But the larger truth seems to be that the game was changing, and Joiner was sort of the canary in the coal mine. He retired less than 25 years ago, but already he ranks 29th on the receptions list and 17th in receiving yards. And he is getting passed by new players every year. Anquan Boldin, a very good receiver but not one I have not yet heard described as an all-time greats, could pass Joiner's reception total next year and he just turned 30 in October.
Joiner's place in the Hall of Fame is as much about timing as anything else. The same could probably be said for pitcher Catfish Hunter, who won only 224 games for generally great teams, and who posted a bland 105 ERA+, but he managed to get into the Hall of Fame before the historic run of 300-game winners (Carlton, Seaver, Perry, Niekro, Sutton) blotted out the sun. Luis Tiant, who had every bit the career that Hunter did, retired three years later and he did not beat the rush.
Timing. Lee Smith seemed to have Hall of Fame good timing. Like Joiner, he retired with a famous record -- Smith's 478 saves was the saves record for nine years after he retired. And like Hunter, his time on the ballot seemed fortuitous. He was on the ballot with a couple of closers Goose Gossage and Bruce Sutter, but he had many, many more saves than either one.
And his first year on the ballot suggested that he would make the Hall of Fame fairly quickly. He garnered 42.3% of the vote, more than Gossage did his first year (33.3%) and significantly more than Sutter did his first year (23.9%). but then, suddenly, his support stalled. More than that, it went backward. Dennis Eckersley went on the ballot in 2004, and for reasons that have never been entirely clear to me, the voters absolutely loved him. Eck received 83.2% of the vote for his unique career as half starter (151-128, 3.67 ERA, 111 ERA+) and half reliever (2.96 ERA, 387 saves, 0.999 WHIP).
Smith only got 36.6% of the vote that second year. The next year, with Eckersley in the Hall, Bruce Sutter and Goose Gossage started to gain heavy support while Smith's numbers continued to stall. Sutter was just one of those pitchers that the voters insisted on loving, and in 2006 they voted him into the Hall of Fame. Gossage was moved to the brink. And Smith, in his fourth year of voting, had barely more support than he had in his first.
Gossage went into the Hall in 2008, and Smith managed 43.3% of the vote -- almost exactly what he had gotten in his first year. There was simply no momentum for his Hall of Fame case. His totals have gone up slightly the last two years, but not enough to give any indication that he will someday get 75%. And you wonder if his time has passed. Smith no longer has the saves record, of course. In fact his 478 are dwarfed by Trevor Hoffman's 601, and nobody knows where Mariano Rivera's save total will end up. And the ballots are going to be absolutely loaded the next few years. You can't help but think that Lee Smith's case can get lost.
Was Smith a Hall of Famer? Well, it is not easy to understand the voters' standards for relievers, but for 13 straight years -- from 1985 to 1996 -- Smith had at least 25 saves. The only other person to manage that was Mariano himself. The save stat is not one of my favorites, and I think there are already too many closers in the Hall of Fame. But there's no question that Lee Smith did his job brutally well, and he did set the saves record, and his case is certainly as good or better than Bruce Sutter's, just for one.
Joe, buddy! I hate, ever, having to correct you...but you are giving too much credit to Jack Morris here. He did *not* win two WS MVPs. He obviously won, rather famously, the 1991 WS MVP, but not the 1984 WS. That went to Alan Trammell.
ReplyDeleteI was an Expos fan when they were in Montreal. There was a cartoon in the Montreal Gazette. In it a priest was talking to a kid in the confessional: "Yes son, it would be a sin to pray for Dave Parker to break a leg. A slight sprain would only add up to a few Hail Mary's."
ReplyDeleteCircle me fond childhood memories.
In 2000 when the Tigers signed Juan Gonzalez, I remember wondering how he would do in cavernous Comerica Park. He did poorly in all conceivable ways. He hit only 22 HRs in 496 PAs, he sulked seemingly the entire year, and he spurned a huge contract offer from the Tigers saying he was leaving Detroit unless they moved the fences in.
ReplyDeleteContrast this to ARod, who hit lots of HRs and the Kingdome in Seattle, and then also in Safeco. After hitting lots of HRs for a few years at the Ballpark in Arlington, he then went on to hit gobs of HRs at Yankee Stadium, which was never considered a HR haven for righties.
ARod was the real deal, Juan Gone wasn't. Steroids probably played a role in this, but I believe both of these characters were implicated in the steroid scandal in some way.
hmmm...Since Larry Walker is not on THIS list, he most be on the HOF list? I loved Larry Walker. What a fun player to watch. But his home/road splits just can't be overcome enough to put him in. But otherwise, a fascinating list above and perfectly thought out and presented. Can't disagree with any of them...and I LOVED Mattingly.
ReplyDeleteA grew up a Yankee fan, and my first favorite Yankee was Graig Nettles, then Don Mattingly, then Bernie Williams. Notice a pattern here? All very good players, but none of them belongs in the Hall of Fame. I would love to see each enshrined, but I could not vote for any of them with a clear conscience.
ReplyDeleteAs a kid collecting baseball cards in the early and mid '80's, I often wasted away days studying the stats on the backs of cards. I always thought at that time that Jack Morris and Steve Rogers of the Expos were very similar pitchers, near the top of their respective leagues. I just went to compare their stats, and Rogers obviously had the inferior career: only 158 wins, only 6 games over .500, 1000 fewer innings, 850 fewer strikeouts, 150 fewer starts, to name a few things.
ReplyDeleteHowever, Rogers did have several advantages over Morris. Despite starting 150 fewer games, he had 9 more shutouts! He had a better ERA (3.17 to 3.90), WHIP (1.232 to 1.296), and a better ERA+ (116 to 105), and a better WAR (45.8 to 39.3) despite 1000 fewer innings.
Morris, of course, had the historic game 7 win in 1991, and an overall 7-4 record with a 3.80 ERA and a 1.245 WHIP in 92 innings.
Rogers only made 1 postseason (1981), but went 3-1 with a 0.98 ERA and 1.012 WHIP in 27 innings.
Both made 5 All-Star teams. Morris had 5 top 5 Cy Young finishes, Rogers had 3.
My point: Rogers obviously is not a HoFer, but I don't think Morris is either. I grew up and remain an ardent Tiger fan, but I feel VERY strongly that both Alan Trammell and Lou Whitaker merit much more consideration for induction than Morris does.
Chad: Trammell and Whitaker both belong in the HOF, for sure.
ReplyDeleteAnd growing up in Canada, I loved Steve Rogers. In '81 when they played the Dodgers for the NL title, we were allowed to go to the A/V room at school to watch the game! It really was that big a deal for a Canadian team to be in the playoffs. And when Rick Monday homered off Rogers, it was a sad moment. I always hated Rick Monday for that. And I always felt bad for Rogers, because he'd been with the Expos through so many bad teams that he deserved to be the hero, not the guy who gave up the winning homer.
@LoCoDe - turning this in to an Expos remembrance. Rogers was great and I watched him pitch alot on CBC Wednesday nights.
ReplyDeleteLarry Walker was a great player. The 1994 strike stopped the Expos final shot. I didn't watch MLB until 2000.
@Chris Jillings:
ReplyDeleteYeah, 1994 was a heartbreaker. All the unanswered questions.
Walker had 44 doubles that year, in only 103 games!
I never regained my former passion for baseball after that, much like I pretty much gave up on hockey after the lost season of 2004/2005.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete@William Tasker
ReplyDeleteWalker could still be on Friday's "Borderline Guys Who Keep Poz Up At Night" list.
I'm a Minnesota kid who moved to St. Louis, so I'm biased toward Jack Morris and Lee Smith.
No way I put in Morris before Blyleven, but Bert's gonna make it this year. Jack needs to need a huge spike in support this year to move his case forward next season. If he's not elected in 2012, he probably does not get in via the BBWAA. The last few of his 15 years will put him up against guys like Maddux, Smoltz, Glavine, Sheffield, Biggio, Bonds, Clemens and a whole bunch of guys who will takes votes away from him.
Lee Smith has hundreds more saves than Sutter and Gossage but never earned the mystique those two did. Not sure if that's because Lee Arthur never pitched in the postseason or maybe because his career slightly followed theirs, but no one is really taking up his cause. His vote totals have gone up the last 3 years, but he'll face the same challenges as Morris if he's not elected this year or the next.
For what it's worth I would vote for the following if I had a ballot:
ReplyDeleteBert Blyleven
Roberto Alomar
Jeff Bagwell
Mark McGwire
Jack Morris
Lee Smith
Alan Trammell
Tim Raines
I'd vote for McGwire over Palmeiro even though Raffy has much better overall numbers than Big Mac because my general take on the Steroid Era and the Hall of Fame is that I'd only keep out a guy whose numbers make him worthy if it can be proven beyond all doubt he used after MLB's initial bans and testing went into effect. That's absolutely the case with Palmeiro, so I would never put him in.
Otherwise we end up ignoring a huge portion of baseball's history, and the HOF is supposed to be museum dedicated to the game.
But Major League Baseball banned steroids in 1991 and McGwire has admitted using them after this date.
ReplyDeleteAl Leiter should be on this list. Leiter was much better than he's being remembered. He had 38.8 career WAR more than Baines, Gonzalez, Parker, Franco and Smith. He had about the same WAR as Mattingly and Morris.
ReplyDeleteMorris' candidacy is a joke made by stubborn and lazy sports writers. There's about 100-150 better pitchers in baseball history than Morris.
Dave Parker just highlights what a joke Jim Rice's selection was. Rice was essentially George Foster and Parker was Better than both Rice & Foster. Heck there were probably about 200-250 players better than Rice and Foster.
Mattingly was a great guy but he was overrated. He was great for four years yet not spectacularly great and didn't deserve the '85 MVP. He was good for two years and about average to below average for the rest of his career. He only deserved about 4 of his GG awards and 3-4 should have gone to Olerud in the early 90's.
Olerud should be considered a borderline HOF. He was a much better player than Mattingly and his two seasons of '93 & '98 were better than any of Mattingly seasons plus he had much more career value than Mattingly. Olerud is around the 115-150 best position player in BB history depending on how you value peak/career.
Franco & Smith: there's no consistency is the HOF voting for relievers. There's literally 7-10 relief about as good if not better than Fingers and Sutter not in the HOF not to mention about 200 starting pitchers that were better than Fingers and Sutter not in the HOF.
I bet he has Walker on his ballot. I don't think he'll go in, but I would probably vote for him since there are 10 spots, and I feel like it's too late to complain that it's a BIG hall. It already is. Larry was a great player in Montreal before everyone started saying his numbers were all about Coors field, and was a fine fielder and baserunner and good for a goofy quote.
ReplyDeleteIt's just so tough for middle infielders and catchers to make their cases with offensive numbers, I think we have to look a lot at context and hope the defensive values that are now in place have become accurate enough to use to help. It's too late for Whitaker who fell off the ballot too soon, but Trammell needs all the help he can get. I would think Larkin will get there eventually, but it may be that Ripken, Smith and Vizquel have spoiled the leeway these guys used to get about games played, and Larkin's getting hurt a bit for what seems like the usual wear and tear of his position in the voting.
Johnny Franco's career was always rather amazing to me. I saw him briefly in AAA Albuquerque in 1982. He seemed so small and unassuming but there must have been something that the LADodgers liked about him as I see he was drafted in 5th round and he moved up to AAA within a year after entering the Dodgers system. (He went to HS at Lafayette in Brooklyn, same as Koufax...)He was traded in 1983 to Cincy, makes to MLB in 1984 and then he goes on to pitch very well in MLB for 21 YEARS! I guess it proves that ya' never know...
ReplyDeleteJoe,
ReplyDeleteGreat column as always. Oddly as someone who realizes Morris is not a viable Hall of Fame candidate, you make a more coherent argument for him than his supporters.
Well, there's no way that Kevin Brown can be on the "Definitive" list...so I guess he must have made the "Borderline/Keep Joe up at Night" list. I think that's too high and he should be on this second round list here.
ReplyDeleteHere's are Kevin Brown's ranks amongst starting pitchers who pitched from 1980-2010 (his career was from 1986-2005), who had at least 1100 IP's and a WAR of at least 30:
--WAR: 8th (64.8 - Baseball Reference). I guess this is the main reason for counting him as a Borderline guy? But is 8th best amongst his era enough for him to be a HOF'er? And he wasn't that much ahead of David Cone (10th place-57.5), Chuck Finley (11th place-55.0) or Bret Saberhagen (12th place-54.7) in WAR and those guys got hardly any HOF support. In fact, compare Brown's 5 highest WAR seasons to those 3 guys and he's not much ahead there either:
**Brown: 34.6 (8.4/7.5/6.5/6.4/5.8)
**Saberhagen: 32.5 (8.6/7.0/6.7/5.2/5.0)
**Cone: 29.8 (6.7/6.6/6.1/5.8/4.6)
**Finley: 29.4 (7.5/6.6/6.3/4.6/4.4)
Now Brown's 5 best WAR seasons came consecutively, so that is a notch in his belt. Nonetheless, its not like Brown was so much more dominant than other solid starters of his era that dropped off the HOF ballot right away.
...more stats in comparison to pitchers from 1980-2010:
--9th in ERA (3.28)
--11th in ERA+ (127) [the guy right above him is Carlos Zambrano]
--11th in Games Started
--12th in IP
--14th in K's
--14th in Wins
--15th in CG's
--21st in Shutouts
--22nd in Win %
Add that to the fact that Brown is known as a postseason choker (he helped end "The Curse", was mediocre overall in the playoffs and esp. in the World Series). So he doesn't get any extra boost from playoff heroics. I don't see how Brown could be seen as the type of player who is right on the very border of being a HOF'er or not. To me, he clearly is OUT. Just my opinion.
Brian,
ReplyDeleteSaying that steroids were 'banned' in 1991 is a dubious claim at best.
It's great that Baines has 5% of the vote here too.
ReplyDeleteThe Jack Morris kicker is the "five-year win leader" thing. It's not conscious, but this is how the voters tend to vote for pitchers without 300 wins. The list includes borderliners such as Herb Pennock, Catfish Hunter, Bob Lemon, and Ted Lyons, and it contains all the BBWAA electees without 300 wins except for Don Drysdale. Here's the list of the leaders for the past 35 seasons:
ReplyDelete1972-1976 Catfish Hunter
1973-1977 Catfish Hunter
1974-1978 Jim Palmer
1975-1979 Jim Palmer
1976-1980 Steve Carlton
1977-1981 Steve Carlton
1978-1982 Steve Carlton
1979-1983 Steve Carlton
1980-1984 Steve Carlton
1981-1985 Jack Morris
1982-1986 Jack Morris
1983-1987 Jack Morris
1984-1988 Frank Viola
1985-1989 Frank Viola
1986-1990 Roger Clemens
1987-1991 Dave Stewart
1988-1992 Roger Clemens
1989-1993 Greg Maddux
1990-1994 Greg Maddux
1991-1995 Tom Glavine
1992-1996 Greg Maddux
1993-1997 Greg Maddux
1994-1998 Greg Maddux
1995-1999 Greg Maddux
1996-2000 Greg Maddux & Pedro Martinez
1997-2001 Randy Johnson
1998-2002 Randy Johnson
1999-2003 Randy Johnson & Greg Maddux
2000-2004 Randy Johnson
2001-2005 Bartolo Colon & Mark Mulder
2002-2006 Roy Oswalt
2003-2007 Johan Santana
2004-2008 Roy Oswalt & Johan Santana
2005-2009 C.C. Sabathia
2006-2010 Roy Halladay
(previously knows as PhilM, not the Phil at 9:14 above)
Phil, are you arguing that the ban goes back to 1971? You may be right.
ReplyDelete"Many have asserted that steroids and other performance enhancing substances were not banned in Major League Baseball before the 2002 Basic Agreement. This is not accurate. Beginning in 1971 and continuing today, Major League Baseball's drug policy has prohibited the use of any prescription medication without a valid prescription. By implication, this prohibition applied to steroids even before 1991, when Commissioner Fay Vincent first expressly included steroids in baseball's drug policy. Steroids have been listed as a prohibited substance under the Major League Baseball drug policy since then, although no player was disciplined for steroid use before the prohibition was added to the collective bargaining agreement in 2002.
"It is also inaccurate to assert, as some have, that baseball's drug policy was not binding on players before it was added to the collective bargaining agreement. Many players were suspended for drug offenses before 2002, even though none of those suspensions related to the use of steroids or other performance enhancing substances. Some suspensions were reduced in grievance arbitrations brought by the Players Association, but no arbitrator ever has questioned the authority of the Commissioner to discipline players for 'just cause' based on their possession, use, or distribution of prohibited drugs."
The Mitchell Report
Guys have been doing drugs in baseball as long as baseball has been around. Steroids didn't make Barry Bonds a great player, or Clemens a great pitcher, just like amphetamines didn't make Pete Rose the all-time hits leader.
ReplyDeleteIf all it took was steroids, Jason Grimsley would have won 5 Cy Young awards.
Dave V.,
ReplyDeleteBrown's right at the in/out line for me. I think that your quick summary understates his case, particularly as you're comparing his rate stats for a full career to a pitcher (Zambrano) who hasn't experienced a decline phase yet. Looking at his ERA+ and comparing it only to players who have had full careers, you'll see it's identical to Tim Keefe and right behind Schilling, Seaver, and Gibson (all at 128).
Looking at his 7-year peak from 1995 - 2001, he averaged 15-8, with 213 innings pitched per year, a 2.65 ERA, a WHIP of 1.072, and an ERA+ of 159. Those are dominant numbers over an extended period.
The biggest knock against him is that he didn't have enough value outside that period. Only four seasons wtih 200 innings or double-digit wins outside that period, and only four other seasons as a full-time starter with an ERA+ of at least 115. That said, his BB-Ref comps include three (relatively weak) Hall of Famers and one more who's certain to be elected, in addition to another couple of guys who'd basically belong in a group of lower-tier Hall of Famers.
Basically, Brown strikes me as a guy who's not a disgrace by either inclusion or exclusion--the Andre Dawson of pitchers. If you're better than him, you're almost certainly a Hall of Famer. If you're worse than him, you're almost certainly not.
Brian, I'm saying Vincent's directive had no more weight than did his directive to realign the divisions. The players rejected the former; the owners rejected the latter. Without drug testing, the 1991 memo wasn't worth the paper it was written on. For the Mitchell Report to assume otherwise is revisionist history.
ReplyDeleteI count 12 guys who Joe hasn't yet mentioned:
ReplyDeleteAlomar
Bagwell
Blyleven
Larkin
E. Martinez
McGriff
McGwire
Murphy
Palmeiro
Raines
Trammell
Walker
So I don't think that he's necessarily voting for Walker. In fact, I'm guessing he's going to leave off Walker and one of Martinez/McGriff/Murphy.
Personally, when I made my list of 10, I had the same guys but didn't vote for Martinez or Walker, both of whom I'd be willing to consider in other years if there were fewer worthy candidates.
Oops, I missed Brown in my list. So 13 guys. I wouldn't put Brown in either.
ReplyDeleteAny sport that doesn't test for performance enhancing drugs and doesn't stipulate penalties for their use is tacitly encouraging them. I'm convinced that the only intellectually honest approach to steroids in baseball prior to 2005 is to treat them exactly like amphetamines in baseball prior to 2005. If you support Hall of Famers known to have used greenies or the red juice, it's hard to deny support for steroids users--especially since amphetamines are no more legal without a prescription than steroids.
ReplyDelete@Chris McClinch - as far as ERA+, Brown ranks 6th if you take away active pitchers from the list (Johan, Halladay, Oswalt, Hudson & Zambrano are ahead of him). For ERA, he improves to 7th (as Johan & Oswalt) are ahead of him. And for Win %, Brown ranks 14th (Halladay, Johan, Hudson, Oswalt, CC, Pettitte, Zambrano are ahead of him). Those are the only rate stats that were listed.
ReplyDeleteKeep in mind for those ranks, while they include active pitchers who haven't necessarily hit their decline phase, they also include the decline phase for some pitchers and NOT their peak years, as their peak was prior to 1980; my thought in starting from 1980 is that it included Brown's entire career and could include most or all of the careers of his contemporaries. In any case, even with the improvements, I personally don't see Brown as a HOF'er. He might be only a point behind Gibson/Seaver/Schilling but he's also only a point ahead of Bret Saberhagen and 2 points ahead of John Tudor. I do understand some of the points you put across in favor of Brown - but for me, Brown just isn't there. Compared directly to his contemporaries, Brown doesn't stand out as a Hall of Famer to me and one can argue that he wasn't better (or that much better) than many of his contemporaries who most people didn't consider serious HOF candidates.
Just as an aside, calling him the Andre Dawson of pitchers is interesting. Dawson did eventually make the HOF...but many people think this his election made no sense.
@Dave -
ReplyDeleteSixth in ERA+ over that era is nothing to sneeze at when you consider that the five names ahead of him on the list (Pedro, Clemens, Johnson, Maddux, and Schilling) are all Hall of Famers, with the first four being inner-circle Hall of Famers.
As I said, though, for me he is the in/out line, and I don't really feel strongly either way. If elected, I'd see him as among the Drysdale/Hunter group of below average Hall of Famers. If not elected, he joins the Tommy John/Jim Kaat/Ron Guidry group of non Hall of Famers that you have to be conclusively better than to deserve election.
Calling him the Andre Dawson of pitchers is meant to express precisely that. Dawson is in, but he could just as easily be out. Everyone better is in, and most people worse are out. To me, he makes sense, although when I blogged the candidates that year, he didn't receive my theoretical vote. Now, if you want to talk about outfielders whose election made no sense, there's always Jim Rice....
Just some more on Kevin Brown...here are his yearly WAR ranks compared to all pitchers that pitched at least 150 IP in that given season:
ReplyDelete1986: not eligible (only 5.0 IP)
1987: not eligible (minors)
1988: not eligible (only 23.1 IP)
1989: 37th
1990: 49th
1991: 61st
1992: 23rd
1993: 30th
1994: 36th
1995: 20th
1996: 3rd
1997: 8th
1998: 1st
1999: 4th
2000: 3rd
2001: not eligible (only 115.2 IP)
2002: not eligible (only 63.2 IP)
2003: 9th
2004: not eligible (only 132.0)
2005: not eligible (only 73.1 IP)
I see his peak as shorter than 7 years, as in 1995 he was 'only' the 20th best starting pitcher (going by WAR) and in 2001, he didn't even it make it close to 150 IP (he made 19 starts; the league leader had 33). He had 5 "Top 10" seasons in a row - including one year at the #1 spot, which is impressive. Then he had one more "Top 10" year in 2003 after missing a lot of games in 2002/2003. Its not a bad career by any means...but I also don't see it as HOF-worthy.
@Chris - fair enough and agreed that 6th best in ERA+ is nothing to sneeze at. And also agreed on Jim Rice :)
ReplyDeleteLoCoDe said...
ReplyDelete"Guys have been doing drugs in baseball as long as baseball has been around. Steroids didn't make Barry Bonds a great player, or Clemens a great pitcher, just like amphetamines didn't make Pete Rose the all-time hits leader.
If all it took was steroids, Jason Grimsley would have won 5 Cy Young awards."
This is a true if misleading statement. Certainly, Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, etc. were great players without steroids, but any honest person has to admit that steroids raised their game to a higher level. I refuse to believe that Bonds would hit 73 homers as a 36-year-old otherwise (not to mention Sosa becoming Ruthian after a fairly undistinguished first 8 years of his career). 110 years of baseball history indicates that such things don't happen.
As for Jason Grimsley, perhaps steroids kept him in the league long after his career would have ended otherwise. It's not so simple as to suggest that steroids would make all players superstars, so since all steroid users didn't become superstars they, therefore, had no effect at all. The logical conclusion is that they simply made players better (stronger, quicker) than they would have been without them. Why else would they use them?
Also, as someone who works in the drug treatment field, I'd suggest that amphetamines would have little or no effect on performance aside from increasing concentration and stamina. No one would throw 5 mph harder or hit a baseball 20 feet further because of greenies, and they'd basically have the same effect as drinking five cups of coffee before a game. The comparison to steroids doesn't hold water for me.
I mentioned David Cone during my Kevin Brown comments and wanted to see how he matched up in yearly WAR amongst pitchers that threw 150 IP+ as well:
ReplyDelete1986: not eligible (only 22.2 IP)
1987: not eligible (only 99.1 IP)
1988: 6th
1989: 61st
1990: 23rd
1991: 21st
1992: 17th
1993: 4th
1994: 2nd (1st in American League)
1995: 3rd
1996: not eligible (only 72.0 IP)
1997: 7th
1998: 24th
1999: 10th
2000: 98th (the year Cone fell off the rails)
2001: not eligible (only 135.2 IP)
2002: not eligible (DNP)
2003: not eligible (only 18.0 IP)
And here are Brown's previously-mentioned ranks:
1986: not eligible (only 5.0 IP)
1987: not eligible (minors)
1988: not eligible (only 23.1 IP)
1989: 37th
1990: 49th
1991: 61st
1992: 23rd
1993: 30th
1994: 36th
1995: 20th
1996: 3rd
1997: 8th
1998: 1st
1999: 4th
2000: 3rd
2001: not eligible (only 115.2 IP)
2002: not eligible (only 63.2 IP)
2003: 9th
2004: not eligible (only 132.0)
2005: not eligible (only 73.1 IP)
Its amazing how similar Brown and Cone are in some ways. Both began in 1986, pitching a very small amount of innings. Brown spent all of 1987 in the minors and Cone threw less than 100 innings. 1988 Brown again only got a small amount of innings and Cone took off. They both had a few seasons, including some at the end of their careers, where they didn't hit even 150 IP. Brown had 13 seasons where he hit 150 IP, Cone had 12. In order of their ranks per season:
--Brown: 1st, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 8th, 9th, 20th, 23rd, 30th, 36th, 37th, 49th, 61st
--Cone: 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 6th, 7th, 10th, 17th, 21st, 23rd, 24th, 61st, 98th
Brown gets credit for having 1 more season in the mix than Cone. But Cone gets credit for being a "Top 25" guy (arbitrary, I know) 10 of his 12 seasons. Brown was a "Top 25" guy 8 of his 13 seasons. They both had 6 "Top 10" seasons. All of this doesn't surprise me, as looking outside of the numbers on the computer screen, I always considered Cone to be a "better" or "more valuable" guy than Brown as I watched their careers unfold. I would rather have had Cone on my team than Brown. And looking at WAR, one can clearly see that Cone had an excellent career. He may come out a bit lower than Brown in career WAR and ERA+, but his overall consistency across seasons was in some ways better. I also value Cone's work in the AL...Cone had a 126 ERA+ in the AL across 11 AL seasons, having to work against the DH. Brown also had 11 AL seasons and had a 108 ERA+ there. Now I'm not saying Brown doesnt deserve credit for having some amazing numbers vs. the NL but Cone made his name in the tougher league and when its a close call between two guys, I personally would take the AL guy (at least across these two guys' era).
And I know some dislike the use of postseason stats but let me throw a few out there. Brown and Cone actually had almost the same average Game Score, with Brown edging out Cone by a hair. I don't love Game Score as a playoff stat but Brown does get the nod there. Cone overall has a better ERA than Brown (in more IP's as well). And in the 5 biggest games of their career, here is what each pitcher did:
ReplyDelete--Player A:
1. ND - 4.1 IP - 4 runs
2. ND - 6 IP - 1 run
3. W - 6 IP - 1 run
4. ND - 6 IP - 3 runs
5. W - 7 IP - 0 runs (and only 1 hit)
--Player B:
1. L - 6 IP - 6 runs
2. L - 5 IP - 4 runs
3. ND - 6.1 IP - 4 runs
4. L - 8 IP - 3 runs
5. L - 1.1 IP - 5 runs
Player A is David Cone and those are his 5 World Series starts. Player B is Kevin Brown and those are his 4 World Series starts + his 2004 ALCS Game 7 start. Now I know this is a small sample size. 5 games doesn't make a career (let alone 1 game, as by no means do I think Jack Morris is a HOF'er). But it is worth noting that in the biggest games of their careers, Cone managed to throw 4 QS's to give his team a chance to win while Brown only threw 1.
Overall, when it comes down to it, give me David Cone (who managed only 3.9% of the vote his first and only year on the ballot) over Kevin Brown. Again, this is just my opinion.
Joe didn't mention the Jack Morris 'wrinkle' in 2013 (not that he should, because to a degree that's speculation which doesn't really apply to this year's ballot), so I thought I'd point it out.
ReplyDeleteIf Jack Morris is on the ballot in 2013, the presence of David Wells on the same ballot is going to become extremely difficult for him.
Morris started 527 games in his 18 year career with a record of 254-186. Wells started 489 games in his 21 year career with a record of 239-157, 221-144 as a starter, both of which are higher winning percentages than Morris's.
Morris had an ERA of 3.90, while Wells's was 4.13, but Wells pitched in a bigger offensive era as his 108 ERA+ (compared to Morris's 105 ERA+) points out.
Morris had more strikeouts at 2478 compared to Wells's 2201, but because Morris was a starter for longer than Wells, the two have almost identical K/9 ratios at 5.8.
Morris allowed fewer hits per inning than Wells, but Wells's control was so much better than Morris's that Wells ended up with a significantly higher K/BB ratio (3.06 for Wells, 1.78 for Morris), and even ended up with a lower WHIP (1.296 for Morris, 1.266 for Wells).
About the only real difference between Jack Morris and David Wells, other than raw win totals (Wells won twenty only once, and had 15+ wins eight times -- nine if you combine his 1995 work across leagues for the Tigers and Reds), is Morris's reputation as a big-game pitcher.
Now, if you think David Wells is a Hall of Famer, this isn't any problem for you. If not, then David Wells has to be a serious problem, particularly considering that Wells actually ranks slightly above Morris on the Hall of Fame Standards List as compiled by baseballreference.com (Wells ranks 71st, Morris 75th).
Tiger,
ReplyDeleteGreenies may not enhance performance like steroids; however, they would allow athletes to maintain performance at the end of a grueling 162 game season. They certainly are apples and oranges, but both were illegal substances that had no testing policy until 2005.
Exactly, Phil. It's not like anyone is trying to further parse this by saying that HGH should be okay because steroids are almost certainly effective and HGH is almost certainly ineffective, although that's much truer than the notion that amphetamines have no performance-enhancing effect.
ReplyDeleteHaving worked in drug rehabs for the last 20 years and extensively studied amphetamine usage/abuse both as a researcher and therapist, I've concluded that greenies only improve performance in one area: staying awake. Generally speaking, they're just as likely to decrease performance as to improve it, though you'd certainly feel more energetic and confident and very possibly believe that they were helping you far more than they were (like all drugs, they distort perceptions). The line between use and abuse is very thin, too, and once it's crossed, amphetamines stop being a help and become far more of a hindrance, eventually causing addiction and compromising normal mental and physical functioning. During the 50s through 70s, this was all still a very inexact science, and I seriously doubt baseball players were finding just the perfect balance to properly use greenies to maximize their peformances when the field of medicine was still struggling with those calibrations. No doubt, they helped them get up in the mornings and grind out long seasons, but baseball isn't a brute force game like football, and they wouldn't help anyone hit a slider or throw strikes. In some cases, they likely did the exact opposite.
ReplyDelete" . . . although that's much truer than the notion that amphetamines have no performance-enhancing effect."
ReplyDeleteI'm with Tiger, and would love to see information on the performance-enhancing nature of amphetamines, if it were available.
""I'm not going to get into semantics," said Dr. Gary Wadler, a doping expert from New York University. "(A stimulant) masks fatigue. It masks pain. Athletes talk about being 'in the zone.' This puts you in the zone. It makes you more aggressive, more alert. There is evidence it increases hand-eye coordination.
ReplyDelete"All those things are performance-enhancing. It's performance not at a natural level. It's performance that has been altered by drugs.""
If you click through my name, you can find a post I did about cheating in MLB. If you're interested.
ReplyDelete"Steroids, cheating & Cooperstown"
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteOK, with further reading on Joe's whole series, it's still not a bad post, but it's not a great post either. Joe's less a "maximalist" than the HOF fluffers at ESPN, but still a bit much for my taste.
ReplyDeleteI'm not a big-to-humonguous Hall guy.
This year's ballot? Blyleven, Alomar, Larkin and Bags (unless real roiding news about him turns up - and I hugely doubt he did) are all yeses, tho I think Larkin, even, is a bit overrated. McGriff I lean yes, and Raines is on the border.
Thank doorknobs Murphy is only on the ballot two more years. The man is equivalent to Dave Parker statistically, and maybe HOF voters aren't so dumb, as they poll about the same.
Also thank doorknob that Jack Morris is only on the ballot three more years, pending some totally misguided voting surge.
@Tiger I'm with you. Speed's as likely to make a batter jittery as anything, and lack of bat control ain't good. That said, what if a 1960s fastball pitcher known to be "mean" anyway was souped up? Gibson or Drysdale on speed?
OH, and speaking of test cases, injuries in his career aside, will Walker become a test case for any pre-humidor Rockies players? Other than his injury dings, that's the reason he's not on my list; he's got pretty big home/road splits from his days there. Shave 3-4 points off his career OPS+ and 100 runs and RBIs and he wouldn't be close to being discussed. (And, I'm a Cards fan who loved him in St. Louis and wish he had played longer.)
ReplyDeleteIs it 6 AM yet?
ReplyDelete""I'm not going to get into semantics," said Dr. Gary Wadler, a doping expert from New York University. "(A stimulant) masks fatigue. It masks pain. Athletes talk about being 'in the zone.' This puts you in the zone. It makes you more aggressive, more alert. There is evidence it increases hand-eye coordination."
ReplyDeleteWadler is right about amphetamines masking fatigue and pain, but his claim about them putting someone "in the zone" is pretty speculative. That might work with people who have a diagnosed attention deficit disorder, but those drugs have the opposite effect on most anyone else. The idea that amphetamines would increase hand-eye coordination is dubious in my opinion. Otherwise brain surgeons, classical musicians, and snipers would all take a few adderall to help them perform. Instead, they sometimes use beta blockers which have the exact opposite effect of amphetamines.
In short, amphetamines might help you if you're a trucker that needs to stay awake and alert driving from West Virginia to Florida or if you're a running back that needs to plow through a defensive line. But I doubt they would help you with hitting a curveball for the same reason they wouldn't help you have steady hands for carving up someone's brain.
@Tiger
ReplyDeleteWell, I've got to think that players took greenies because they worked. And they took truckloads of them.
And I'll take the word of a Doctor over some anonymous poster anyday.
@LoCoDe --
ReplyDeleteI would think most players took greenies because some other player(s) told them they worked and/or because that's "what you do" if you are a MLB player. I think greenies had more of a placebo effect that anything. As Crash Davis put it, "If you believe you're playing well because you're getting laid, or because you're not getting laid, or because you wear women's underwear, then you ARE!"
And while Dr. Wadler may be an expert on doping (not drugs or pharmacology, I note), he is just one doctor. I must agree with Tiger that if they had any significant effect in that direction that they would be used by surgeons, musicians, and snipers, among others.
No one watching these guys in the 80's would have compared Morris to Sugar Daddy Reuschel. That's like comparing Jerry Reuss to Jim Kaat. You know better than this.
ReplyDeleteDoes Morris belong in the Hall? Well-lookee at what you have there-Ted Lyons, Red Faber, Vic Willis, Catfish Hunter, Jim Bunning, plausible Tiant and Schilling candidacies. He's as good as Any one of these guys-you know it as well as I do.
Like it or not, Ryan, Mathewson or Carlton are NOT the HOF standard, never have been. That train left the station decades ago. If you don't like Morris going in, you better be ready to wail loud and hard once Mr. Bloody Sawk(TM) comes up for election down the road a few years from now, just for starters.
Winning the most games in a 10 year period-somehow this is seen as a negative? as a so-what? Really? since when was winning games considered a negative? I know we're all supposed to pretend pitching wins, W-L Pct etc don't really count nowadays, but you know no one outside the zealots actually believe that. What, 254 wins isn't good enough? Was his K-W ratio not pretty enough? He didn't win enough game 7's? 2478 K's doesn't knock your socks off?
Gimme a break. I used to be on the fence about Black Jack going in until I began to read this crap, and realized if anything he was Better than I thought he was. If he manages to get in next year, I'm gonna just frame your comments there Joe Poz.
You're the big Dale Murphy fan, right? Wow. Gee.