Wednesday, January 5, 2011

The Hall of Fame Recap

Well, for the most part, Hall of Fame day went as expected. Roberto Alomar didn't just go into the Hall of Fame, he received 90% of the vote, a higher percentage than Jackie Robinson, Sandy Koufax, Mickey Mantle, Frank Robinson and Bob Gibson among most others. This seems to solidify the perception that last year (when he felt short of election) a bunch of voters (more than 100 of them) thought Alomar deserved a year's penance for the spitting incident that marked his reputation. This seems churlish to me, but it has become clear that Hall of Fame voters like to make their points.

And Bert Blyleven, finally, made it into the Hall of Fame. This should cut back my writing work load by about 10% in 2011. There has been quite a bit of discussion, it seems, about how Blyleven's Hall of Fame percentages could have risen from 17.5% his first year of eligibility down to 14.1% his second year all the way up to 79.7% and election on Wednesday. There has been talk about how big a role the Internet played, how big a role our amazing access to statistics played, how a big a role intelligent lobbyists like Rich Lederer made and so on.



Seems to me that the issue is that Blyleven was wildly unappreciated in his day and this carried over into the voting. I sometimes wonder what would happen if we could find an Elizabethan Era English theater fan. I sometimes wonder if he would say: "Shakespeare? That's who you guys chose as the best of the era? Are you kidding me? That guy was NOTHING compared to Ben Jonson and John Webster. Christopher Marlowe kicked his butt. And then you have the Spanish guys like Cervantes and Lope de Vega. Are you serious? Shakespeare?"

Point being: While it is interesting how a player was viewed in his day, and while it certainly plays a part in how we judge his career after he finished playing, I think we have to consider much more than that. You will hear people say: "Well, if you it's all just about statistics, we even have a vote? Why not just put an arbitrary line of Wins Above Replacement and be done with it?" I would agree with the premise that a Hall vote should be based on more than numbers. But I think the converse is even more absurd: "Well, if it's all just about how we viewed them when they were playing, we even have a vote? Why not just put an arbitrary line of All-Star Game appearances and MVP votes and Cy Young votes and be done with it?"

Bert Blyleven was a great pitcher. People didn't see it clearly during his era for several reasons, some of them, I suspect, may have had to do with Blyleven's attitude. Over time -- and it does take time -- people saw through the fog and realized just how good Blyleven was at striking out hitters, throwing shutouts, pitching complete games and those very real things that made him one of the best of his or any era.

Beyond those two great players getting into the Hall of Fame, there were some other interesting Hall of Fame trends and one gigantic bit of foreshadowing that was easy to miss. I'll get to the news in a minute. First, five smaller things:

1. I think Barry Larkin is now on the brink of the Hall of Fame. His vote total jumped pretty dramatically -- from 51.6% to 62.1% -- and this on a stacked ballot. Larkin was a great player, I think, one of the most well-rounded players in baseball history. But he did have numerous injury problems, and he was SO well rounded that he does not have any one dramatic Hall of Fame sell point the way Ozzie Smith (greatest defensive shortstop ever) or Tony Gwynn (best pure hitter of his generation) did.

It's like Bill James said when determining characteristics of overrated and underrated: "Specialists and players who do two or three things well are overrated; players who do several things well are underrated." Larkin did many things well.

But I think next year is his year. The only viable Hall of Fame candidate being added to the ballot next year is Bernie Williams, and while it will be interesting to see how much support he gets, you can bet it won't be that much. That will make Larkin, in the minds of voters, the premier guy on next year's ballot. I think he's well situated to be the only player elected in 2012.

2. Jack Morris made almost no movement. He went from 52.3% in 2010 to 53.5% in 2011. I think that could be bad news for his Hall of Fame candidacy on two fronts. First, Morris' time on the ballot is running out. This is his 12th year, meaning he has only three more. But even more than that, the 2013 ballot is looking absolutely stacked. That ballot will include Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Sammy Sosa, Mike Piazza, Craig Biggio, Curt Schilling -- it is going to be a voter's nightmare is what it's going to be. And even to those who are determined not to vote for any suspected steroid users, I think Jack Morris' case iwill not look especially compelling with those players on the ballot. Add Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine, Mike Mussina and Frank Thomas to the ballot in 2014 and ... well, yes, Jack Morris really needs to make it next year.

And I don't think he has that kind of momentum. That's the second thing. I kind of think that Morris's support is kind of maxing out. Yes, about half of the voters will vote for Morris based on his Game 7 performance, his general grit, his excellent mustache, he remarkable durability, his most-wins-of-the-80s feat. But are there another 125 voters who are going to vote in a guy with a 3.90 career ERA, no Cy Youngs and advanced numbers that are generally inferior to Dennis Martinez and Frank Tanana and clearly inferior to Kevin Brown? I kind of doubt it.

3. Tim Raines simply cannot get any momentum going. His percentage did go up from 30.4% to 37.5% so that's not an insubstantial jump. But Raines faces the same general problem that Morris faces ... the dark cloud of steroid players is approaching. I think he will could fall entirely off the radar when that wave of players roars in.

I guess Raines' best hope is that in the steroid cloud he will become a cause celebre, an anti-steroid option, sort of the way Jim Rice did. Raines' greatness -- his amazing base stealing and his ability to get on base and create havoc -- sort of cuts against the Selig Era of baseball. I always want to remind people: Tim Raines got on base more times than Tony Gwynn in just 127 more plate appearances. Gwynn had 488 more total bases, which is a lot. But Raines had 540 more walks, which would be more. Raines also had almost 500 more stolen bases while being caught just 21 more times. He was essentially as valuable as Tony Gwynn only in different ways ... and Gwynn was a first-ballot, slam-dunk Hall of Famer. Someday, I hope, people will appreciate just how good a baseball player Tim Raines was.

4. Mark McGwire's total, as I suspected, went backward (from 23.7% to 19.8%) after he admitted using steroids but refused to concede that they made him the player he became. I understand this, and I understand those voters who have decided plainly that steroid use was cheating, and cheating makes a player unworthy of the Hall of Fame. I suspect McGwire will probably never see even 25% support again. I voted for McGwire, and I will again. But I also don't think this is any great tragedy. He knew what he was doing.

I guess my only thought is that, as far as I know, the only person on this ballot or any of the next three ballots who has actually come forth and admitted using steroids ... is Mark McGwire. We all know he isn't the only player in his era or on those ballots who used steroids. He's just the one who came forth and admitted it and said it was wrong and that he was sorry.

If the Hall of Fame voters feel like they should punish McGwire for admitting he used steroids -- even if he was evasive about the effects -- then it seems to me that we are discouraging anyone from coming clean. It's almost like the voters don't really want to know the truth. Maybe we would rather think the worst.

5. When you consider all infighting that led up to Wednesday, Jeff Bagwell did reasonably well in the voting at 41.7% -- that's exactly what Hoyt Wilhelm got his first year (it took him eight years), and better than the first year percentages of Hall of Famers Billy Williams (six years), Luis Aparicio (six years), Duke Snider (11 years), Eddie Mathews (5 years), Ralph Kiner (13 years -- Kiner got 1.1% his first year on the ballot) and Early Wynn (4 years) among others.

Bagwell's first year percentage suggest that he is on pace to get in four or five years down the line, but of course Bagwell faces the same issue as Morris and Raines, only more so: The ballot is about to get swarmed with a bunch of hitters with remarkable numbers. He's no lock to get in.*

*Brilliant reader Barry asks this question -- before Pujols, was Jeff Bagwell the best first baseman in National League history. It's kind of a trick question because the best first basemen -- Gehrig and Foxx in particular -- were American Leaguers, and so was Frank Thomas, Eddie Murray, Harmon Killebrew, Hank Greenberg and Mark McGwire for the most part. I'd say the top contenders would be Johnny Mize -- granting him the three years he lost to war -- Willie McCovey and, going way back, Cap Anson. But Bagwell has a case.

* * *

The biggest story on Wednesday, I think, is that the opinion about steroid use seems to be hardening. Rafael Palmeiro, with 3,000 hits and 500 homers, got only 11% of the vote. Mark McGwire's numbers went down. Kevin Brown actually fell off the ballot. Juan Gonzalez, despite a campaign that featured a full-color brochure, barely stayed on the ballot. All of them have been connected with steroids.

And I think they are the canaries in the coal mine, the ones that are telling us what is coming in two and three and four years. I guess I have believed that, in time, the steroid fury would settle down and that while it might hurt borderline cases, all-time greats like Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens would still get in. I'm not sure I think that anymore. I think there was a powerful statement made on Wednesday. I'm not sure a strongly-suspected steroid user can get to 75%, no matter how good he was.

I've said plenty on the subject, and I'll undoubtedly babble about it more over time so I don't have anything else from a personal perspective to add here. But from a news perspective, well, before the announcement, I talked a bit with Hall of Fame president Jeff Idelson. I was curious how the Hall of Fame views the voting and how they view the future. And I have to say the answers surprised me. Jeff said a few things that reiterated that surprising thought in my mind: Right now, from the way everything is pointing, I don't think Barry Bonds is going into the Hall of Fame. I don't think Roger Clemens is going to the Hall of Fame. I don't think Sammy Sosa is going to the Hall of Fame. Not for for a long time.

Here's what makes me say that: Jeff made it clear that the Hall of Fame, at least for now, is extremely pleased with the way the voting is going. He thinks -- and I would agree -- that the Baseball Writers of America take the task seriously and are doing their best to follow the longstanding voting directive, which is as follows:

"Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character and contribution to the team(s) on which the player played."

There seems no question that any voting directive that has "integrity" AND "sportsmanship" AND "character" on there will encourage voters to become moral arbiters. Idelson is comfortable with that. More than that: He and the Hall of Fame want sportswriters to think hard and be firm when it comes to a player's on-the-field character.

"Baseball has historically been held to a very high standard, right or wrong," he says. "There's a certain integrity required when it comes to baseball's highest honor, which is being inducted into the Hall of Fame. The character clause exists as it relates to the game on the field. The character clause isn't there to evaluate and judge players socially. It's there to relate to the game on the field. ... The voters should have the freedom to measure that however they see fit."

I told him that this was fine to say now ... but that there could come a time in the near future when the All-Time home run king (Barry Bonds), a man with a case as the greatest pitcher in baseball history (Roger Clemens), and several other players who seem to have slam-dunk Hall of Fame credentials but are shadowed by indistinct and blurry steroid rumors could be denied the Hall of Fame. And the Hall of Fame could be denied them as well. How comfortable is he with some of the greatest players in baseball history not being elected to the Hall of Fame?

Answer: Very comfortable. It seems clear to me from what he says here that the Hall of Fame has no problem with the exclusion of known steroid users or even strongly suspected steroid users.

"When you look at the Hall of Fame elections," he said. "you see that those who are elected are representative of that era. The Hall of Fame election is a continuum. And the standards have upheld the test of time. We believe they work. We believe the voters have exercised a great understanding about the candidates in the Hall of Fame. I think when you look at who the writers have voted into the Hall of Fame, you would be hard-pressed to find someone who doesn't belong there."

Well, um ... no, don't get me started here. Back to Jeff Idelson:

"There's always going to be arguments about who's in," he says. "Only 1% of all players are making it to Cooperstown. Am I worried that this era will be under-represented? No. I mean, you have a set of guidelines and rules in place. ... I think we are happy with the way the voting has gone, we're happy with the diligence of the voters who have participated, and the chips will fall as they fall."

Well ... I think that's pretty clear. The Hall of Fame, Jeff is plainly saying, will be just fine if the voters do not vote in Bonds or Clemens or anyone else because of steroid use. I have always been uncomfortable with sportswriters as judges of sports morality -- seems to me we have a hard enough time agreeing on fairly obvious baseball points.

After talking with Jeff, though, I think judges of sports morality is PRECISELY what the Hall of Fame wants.

"You know this ... as you walk through Cooperstown, you have the history museum where every facet of the game represented," he said. "That will not change. That's the celebratory nature of the Cooperstown experience. But when it comes to players inducted, we feel strongly that the rules for election need to be where they are. ... There's no question that in many ways, this is an odd time. But at the end of the day, we want to maintain the high standards of the Hall."

76 comments:

  1. Dave Cameron on fangraphs brought up a great point - why did Alomar get 90% of the vote while Larkin got just 62% despite them having essentially the same numbers but Larkin played the tougher and more important position? I guess it's the same reason Morris gets double the support of Trammell even though everyone at the time knew Trammell was the superior player.

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  2. I posted this on one of Craig Calcaterra's posts earlier, but I'm hoping Joe can address this as well. Joe, can you take a stab at justifying the voting imbalance between Larkin and Trammell? I'm looking for any reasonable argument for supporting Larkin but not Trammell, and I'm simply not finding it. They are so similar, both from the perspective of things voters traditionally look at (two shortstops who played 19/20 years for just one team, won a World Series, made multiple All-Star teams, won multiple Gold Gloves, had similar MVP voting results, character, excellent post-season records, etc.) and from the perspective of advanced metrics (68.9 WAR for Larkin, 66.9 for Trammell using BBRef; 72.0 for Larkin to 71.3 for Trammell using FanGraphs), that I just don't get the gap in support that Larkin enjoys. This seems a clear case of where a voter should either support neither or both. Supporting only one but not the other makes no sense.

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  3. @Schlom: I would say part of it is owing to Alomar having better counting stats (due to Larkin's injury issues), and part of it is due to the *perception* (because advanced defensive stats didn't bear it out) that Alomar was a fantastic defender.

    And to disagree with Joe a bit...I would attribute the huge bump between year 1 and year 2 totals for Alomar to the anti-first ballot bias of a number of electors, as opposed to the spitting incident. We know (because they've told us) that a number of electors differentiate between Hall of Famers and first ballot Hall of Famers. And as a result, many won't vote for people on their first appearance - especially if that person is a viable candidate for the hall...iow, a candidate who is otherwise hall-worthy is *less* likely to get the vote of a number of electors the first time on the ballot.

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  4. Joe, I agree wholeheartedly with what you write and I want to reiterate my support for all of your HOF writing, which I think is the best in the business. I just want to point out that Raines' HOF chances are actually pretty improved after today, as I think his vote totals went 30.4% to 37.5% (you may have accidentally referenced his 2010 totals).

    (I have previously posted as 'electric')

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  5. You know what it's going to take? It's going to take us finding out that a player *already* inducted into the HOF was a steroid user. Unless they plan to induct nobody from the 1995-2005 era, it's going to happen (maybe it already has). And once it does and we find out about it, one of two things is going to happen. Either 1) we're going to have our first HOF expulsion (unlikely); or 2) we're going to move past this obsession with steroids and go back to inducting the best players of each generation, warts and all, as we should.

    In the meantime, if you're going to keep the all-time hits leaders AND the all-time HR leader AND arguably the best pitcher ever out of the HOF, why not just bulldoze the place.

    Not that the HOF is officially affiliated with MLB, but nothing will dampen lifelong affection for baseball like telling an entire generation that the game they grew up with never officially happened. Baseball is the greatest game in the wold, but nearly everyone associated with it--the owners, many of the players, a lot of fans, and, apparently, about 85-90% of the writers--are just buffoons.

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  6. If that is the direction this thing is going, then there will be a revolt. It will be like when there were two popes. Eventually, there will be an alternative organization/site/place that will celebrate the best players of all time and leave the morality out of it. If that's what Idelson and Heyman and others want, so be it.

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  7. I guess I was unaware of Kevin Brown being linked to steroids. Prior to getting home and seeing the complete list, he was one of the 2 people who was going to get my vote next year (to replace the 2 that made it in) I was surprised he did not get any support.
    The average HOF voter voted for 5.98 people. With many on record as voting for 10, that means there are several that only voted for 2 or 3.

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  8. @ Paul White. One word answer for you regarding the Larkin/Trammell argument: Timing. Timing has screwed Trammell because he played and starred in the 80's and was badly overshadowed by Ozzie and Ripken (even though as Joe has pointed, Streak aside, their stats are similar). Larkin benefitted from it because he had no similar contemporaries. He was the only true star at SS in the early-to-mid 90's.He lucked out because his peak came well after the 80's guys and just before the likes of A-Rod, Tejada, Nomar, and Jeter. Had Larkin's career peak began around, say 1985, he'd be in the same boat as Trammell. Likewise if his peak started in say 1999 and was eligible for the Hall in a few years he'd once again be in the same boat as Trammell. Timing is everything and unfortunately for a deserving HOF'er like Trammell, he had shitty timing.

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  9. I think the ballot crowding issue is going to be more serious than most people realize. Assuming the only player elected next year is Larkin, there will be TWELVE players with a career bWAR over 60 on the ballot. And that doesn't even include Sosa and Piazza, who are just short of 60. Then there are the others with less impressive stats but who nonetheless have a fair amount of voting support (such as Dale Murphy and, yes, Jack Morris).

    With only 10 votes per writer, voting is going to be spread awfully thin in a few years. It could become hard for anyone, let alone the suspected juicers, to get to 75%. And going by what Jeff Idelson said, it doesn't sound like the voting rules will be changed anytime soon.

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  10. Addendum: I should have said that there will be 12 players with career bWAR over 60 on the ballot IN 2013.

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  11. Barry Larkin merits election. Some of his injury time may have come from playing on that on that brick home field in Cincinnati (vide the blame for Andre Dawson's bad knees).

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  12. I loved watching Tim Raines play ball. He was a marvelous ball player. Every Wednesday night CBC used to broadcast the Expos games and Raines would hit, run, steal.

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  13. Those Idelson comments really bother me. I was thinking about it, and I realized what it is that's disturbing.

    When the first Hall of Fame election was held, Ty Cobb was inducted. As we all know, Cobb, for many reasons, doesn't really seem to measure up to the character clause. However, it's undeniable that he's one of the greatest players of all-time, so of course he was voted in. Now, obviously the writers didn't actually get together and decide on this message, and I don't want to invest too much importance in one man's election, but I think that sent a clear message that induction into the Hall of Fame is first and foremost about excellence in one's playing career. And we can quibble about notable omissions and questionable inclusions, but by and large, there hasn't been any major event to change that fact: getting into the Hall of Fame represents being an excellent baseball player.

    And, I would argue, this is part of what makes the Hall of Fame so special. Suppose they hadn't inducted Cobb. Suppose they had decided he needs to stay out, as punishment for being a racist/all-around nasty dude. Suppose they held to that standard, and kept out various other all time players for character reasons. Then the Hall would basically just be a glorified Good Guy Award. Getting inducted wouldn't mean as much, because it doesn't just mean you were excellent, it means you were excellent...and demonstrated some dubious, intangible "character" points.

    If Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens are kept out of the Hall of Fame, this is what it will become. They're arguably the greatest hitter and pitcher ever to play the game. If they're held out, induction into the Hall of Fame no longer represents excellence at the game of baseball, but rather excellence...plus not testing positive for steroids/not having a trainer rat you out/not being implicated for whatever reason. It ceases to have meaning.

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  14. JP, any comment on what appear to be the zanier ballots, like the vote for BJ Surhoff and Tino Martinez that have been getting attention? Thanks for the great posts. I really enjoy them.

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  15. Joe said last week that he believes that there is a current HoF member who used steroids, and if it's who Bill James suspects, it'd be a damning case against the BBWAA voters.

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  16. Can't JoePo just become the single electoral vote and forget the rest of the BBWAA. More than anyone else who votes (that I have read, at least) Joe as clearly given the matter the necessary due thought and considered both the "modern" and "traditional" evaluations of players to have the best ballot there is. Screw 75%...if Joe says they're in...they're in.

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  17. Why do we have to wait for a steroids user to be in the Hall of Fame? There are already admitted amphetamine users in there (such as Hank Aaron, although it was only once). I don't think anyone should be kicked out of the Hall of Fame; I'm just tired of the BBWAA acting like the cheating that occurred during the era I began to watch baseball was somehow more egregious than cheating during other eras.

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  18. I just want to know that the 2 morons who voted for BJ Surhoff never get to vote again.

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  19. "Joe said last week that he believes that there is a current HoF member who used steroids, "

    Tricky Rickey? Nolan Ryan?

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  20. You know, if a racist scumbag like Ty Cobb represents the "integrity" of the game of baseball, then pretty much anyone short of Hitler ought to get a pass on the "character" question.

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  21. It's funny how many of these writers had no problem voting for Bonds to be MVP a billion times, but now want to have integrity about Steroids and the Hall of Fame. Some accolades are ok to vote to him, but not others? Or are they trying to contend that they had no idea anything fishy was going on until 2004?

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  22. Although they might not be elected to the HOF, it's not like there (presumably) won't be a number of exhibits featuring Bonds or Clemens or whomever.

    I always thought that about P*** R***. It's not like he was white-washed from the Hall like a former Soviet Premier. You can see him in stuff about the 1975 Reds (The Machine, still available at Borders) or the 1970 All-Star Game.

    The thing that really riled me up today was old school types in the media still only using counting stats as criteria and playing the "nerd in the basement" card for people using Sabermetrics for their arguments.

    Also, if, next year, Biggio does as poorly as Bagwell did today, I worry about a potential Bill James shooting spree. :>

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  23. Lots of people are bringing up Ty Cobb's character as evidence that the Hall is selective in applying their character clause to electees. Ty Cobb was voted in in 1936. What was the moral standard back then is considerably different than what it is today. The character clause will always be applied in the context of society at the time of the votes. I'm not advocating keeping steroids users out, I just don't buy the Cobb argument.

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  24. @mo_positive: As I posted a few days ago in Joe's post "Innocent Until Proven Guilty", when someone voiced a similar concern about Cobb:

    "A racist, Cobb once slapped a black elevator operator for being "uppity." When a black night watchman intervened, Cobb pulled out a knife and stabbed him. (The matter was later settled out of court.)"
    http://www.georgiaencyclopedia.org/nge/Article.jsp?id=h-733

    Pretty sure hitting and stabbing people for no reason other than apparent racism wasn't really the social or moral norm in 1936.

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  25. Tim Raines may never reach the HOF and one particular matter or quote is as much a reason as any...I don't know the exact context but Raines admitted that in his early years he didn't slide into a base feet-first for fear that the vial of cocaine that he regularly carried with him might be jarred loose from his rear pants pocket.

    Some of the more conservative and/or old-timers still voting may use this against him into infinity...

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  26. "Joe said last week that he believes that there is a current HoF member who used steroids, and if it's who Bill James suspects, it'd be a damning case against the BBWAA voters."

    Who is this? Has James said a name?

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  27. Some excellent players are going to drop off the ballot in a couple years, when the next huge class of HOF-worthy candidates joins the discussion.

    I wonder whether the Veterans Committee will ever be able to right the wrongs being perpetrated by the sanctimonious writers. I think that it will take a long time for that to occur, since many of the players from the '70's and '80's have been just as sanctimonious in their criticisms of the PED-era players.

    Maybe once people like Alomar and Ripken and Frank Thomas are the HOFers on the committee, they will be able to carry the vote in rewarding their peers for their excellence, regardless of whether or not they were suspected users.

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  28. If Morris gets in for his awesome mustache, then Keith Hernandez has gotta be seen as a lock to get in via the veterans committee.

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  29. My guess is Puckett.

    I mean, he did go from zero HR to 31. Perhaps he showed a bit of 'roid rage in his dealings with women, too.

    I wouldn't be surprised if someone told me that Hrbek, Gaetti, Brunansky and most of the Twins gang juiced it up.

    But until someone can come up with a definitive list of who did NOT juice it is all juat wild guesswork anyway. And you can never prove a negative, so screw it all.

    I loved Kirby as a player and I'm glad he's in the Hall!

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  30. I wonder how the steroid-obsessed writers square this stand against Palmiero, McGwire and others. And yet at some point over 75% of them voted for Gaylord Perry. Perry's autobiograpy was "Me and the Splitter", but it could've been just as easily been "I CHEATED".Also, Whitey Ford, Don Sutton and numerous other HoF pitchers were suspected of scuffing balls.With a few cocktails in him, Ford's even said he did so. And also, damn near everyone that played in MLB before 2009 on some day after a night game in August at least once took a cup of coffee with greenies in it.

    Not saying steroids are acceptable. But why are some forms of cheating no big deal, yet this one is a scarlet letter?

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  31. If Morris does not get elected the credit (or blame if you think he should) for keeping him out really should be given to the writers who voted for him and not Blyleven the last few years. Their nonsensical votes hurt Morris a couple ways. By not voting for Bert they were keeping him on the ballot longer and Morris' case couldn't gain traction as long as a much better pitcher was struggling to get elected. The more harmful effect of their vote is it caused people to make a direct comparison between the two pitchers. Voters who chose both or neither were fine. However, a few years ago it was noted that a couple writers were voting for Morris and not Blyleven which led Bert's supporters to shed the same kind of light on Morris' career as they did to Blyleven's. Looking intelligently at Morris' career basically killed his case. Also, the comparison between the two pitcher was so lopsided that for a lot of fans the ballots became kind of an intelligence test for measuring voters. Just speaking for myself, I've lost a lot of respect for some writers. It is one thing to see some goof I've never heard of (Stanton) submit a ridiculous ballot it is another thing altogether to see a supposedly level headed guy like Olney show a lack of understanding of the game.

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  32. “Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character and contribution to the team(s) on which the player played."

    I'm Ok with the HoF asking the writers to consider ALL of this wrt to a player's past...

    I'm NOT OK with the HoF maintaining an ‘ineligible list’ specifically banning players from consideration...if the HoF is comfortable letting the writers decide wrt players integrity, sportsmanship, & character, then WHY are there players on the ‘ineligible list’ that the writers cannot vote for??

    We cannot just wing our hands about steroids use and ignore the banishment of gamblers...ignoring the 'best' pitcher and the 'best’ HR hitter isn't any worst than ignoring the 'best' hitter (aka Pete Rose) or the player with the 3rd highest career average (Shoeless Joe) or Ed Cicottle, the pitcher who compares favorably with HoFers Stan Coveleski and Chief Bender.

    I do understand that these ineligible players are past the ‘window’ where writers can vote for them, but I find it somewhat hypocritical that the HoF claims they are ‘comfortable’ with having writers police their ‘character’ clause, yet they still feel compelled to impose an ineligible list.

    The ineligible list should be abolished.

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  33. Great article Joe. I'm 34 and have been watching baseball my entire life. I worked in sports media for six years and I personally know HOF voters. However, if the top players from the so-called "Steroids Era" don't make into the Hall of Fame, then I'll stop watching baseball within the next four or five years. I feel that strongly about it. Why would I take my kids to a Hall of Fame that doesn't have the best players from my generation in it?

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  34. I highly doubt all the writers of the BBWAA are taking the vote serious. At this point it seems like this could be the case for a majority of writers.

    You've got a lack of integrity on the part of writers who one year say they're not voting for anyone in the steriod era one year, then flip the next year, then flip back the year after that.

    Then you have others who use the excuse "I reserve my right to review a candidate at a later time". To me that says the writer is lazy. The names on the ballot are not announced two days prior to ballots going out. There's plenty of time to go through each candidate, as proof by some of the more informed articles I've read regarding the Hall of Fame. Then you have those who through out accusations and stereotypes without even researching.

    To me it seems that a majority of the BBWAA members may be I'll equipped to vote baseball players into the Hall of Fame.

    To improve the process, maybe each writer should have to submit a public one page paper on each candidate explaining why they did or didn't vote for someone. Then you have the Hall of Fame grade each paper. A simple grade of satisfactory or unsatisfactory should suffice. Obviously if the paper is satisfactory your vote counts, unsatisfactory your vote get's trashed.

    Laziness from the writers more than anything, even the steroid issue (which by the way it seems everyone has moved passed except for the writers) bothers me.

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  35. Regarding Cobb, he was a racist a--hole but what did that have to do with baseball? Idelson said that the character clause relates to the game as it is played on the field. Being a racist in a sport that had only white players really had nothing to do with anything.

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  36. Simple question: how the hell can the Hall be taken seriously if Barry Bonds isn't in it? Look, I hate Barry Bonds, hate his attitude, hate his giant head, hate his ego, hate the fact that this prick is going to be in the record books for a long time. But just look at this:

    http://espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=1785

    Look at the 2004 season!! Those are video game numbers!!! His OPS was almost 1.5!!! Honestly, how high would it have to be before voters were forced to vote him in no matter what? I don't like steroids any more than anyone. But that quote on the bottom is super hypocritical if Bonds doesn't get in.

    "You know this ... as you walk through Cooperstown, you have the history museum where every facet of the game represented"

    How the hell is Bonds not a huge part of the history of baseball? Was he not the greatest hitter of all time??

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  37. The reason I am sceptical of using "character" to include or exclude players from the Hall is not steroids. It's Kirby Puckett and Albert Belle. Belle and Puckett are a pretty similar caliber, if not type, of player. Belle was seen as a jerk who was mean to reporters and he fell of the ballot instantaneously. "Bad Character". Kirby Puckett, who doesn't belong in the Hall anymore than Jim Rice does, nevertheless went in pretty quickly because he was viewed as just the greatest guy, a positive role model blah blah blah. People brought this snow job juuuuuuusst long enough for him to get elected into the Hall. Then the curtain was pulled back and...well Albert Belle's not that bad is he?

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  38. I suspect the Hall likes the Steroid controversy -- I know I've paid more attention to the votes over the past years. Stark wrote a column recently arguing that the Hall needs to establish some standards for weighing the steroid era. I doubt that will ever happen. The lack of standard causes too much (good) controversy for Cooperstown. What we need is exact opposite -- we the public need to reach a concensus on the issue, at which point the Hall will likely ratify it because there'll be no more benefit to the controversy. I suspect that this will have to happen by 2014 -- by that point the combination of steriod suspicions, the backlog, and the ridiculous 75% rule will combine to block the election of lots of clearly worthy players, and we'll all just have to drop our suspicions and get over it.

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  39. Beyond the racist stuff(which is bad enough) Cobb and Tris Speaker likely conspired to fix a game and profited from it, at least once that we know about. But again in recent history 75% of the BBWAA voted for an admitted cheat in Perry. And Perry cheated ina very direct way that impacted the outcome of games.More than likely a number of other HoF pitchers did the same things. And as DSU notes, Puckett merely kpet his dark side(possible steroid use?) hidden long enough to get in. Point is these guys playing the "character and integrity" card this late in the game is laughable.

    Put Rose, Bonds, Palmiero, Clemens and McGwire in the Hall. And put their misdeeds right on the plaque. Suspect they will all still show up. Unless they want to hold a witch hunt and start expelling HoFers for their misdeeds.

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  40. Beyond the racist stuff(which is bad enough) Cobb and Tris Speaker likely conspired to fix a game and profited from it, at least once that we know about. if you specualte, probably more than once.

    But again in recent history 75% of the BBWAA voted for an admitted cheat in Perry. And Perry cheated ina very direct way that impacted the outcome of games.More than likely a number of other HoF pitchers did the same things. And as DSU notes, Puckett merely kpet his dark side(possible steroid use?) hidden long enough to get in. Point is these guys playing the "character and integrity" card this late in the game is laughable.

    Put Rose, Bonds, Palmiero, Clemens and McGwire in the Hall. And put their misdeeds right on the plaque. Suspect they will all still show up. Unless they want to hold a witch hunt and start expelling HoFers for their misdeeds

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  41. tGP wrote: "Suppose they held to that standard, and kept out various other all time players for character reasons. Then the Hall would basically just be a glorified Good Guy Award."

    I like it! Can we call it the "Hall of Goody Two-Shoes?"

    Now Steve Garvey gets in after all.

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  42. @Mark Daniel: Cobb stabbed someone. How are people glossing over this? This is the third time I've had to point this out on this blog, but:

    "A racist, Cobb once slapped a black elevator operator for being "uppity." When a black night watchman intervened, Cobb pulled out a knife and stabbed him. (The matter was later settled out of court.)"
    http://www.georgiaencyclopedia.org/nge/Article.jsp?id=h-733

    I mean, look, I love Cobb as a player and believe his Ron Artest incident was kind of justified if you read about it (I'd probably do the same if someone was hurling racial epithets at me), but come on. He stabbed a black night watchman after hitting a black elevator operator for no reason other than racism. How is it not justifiable to mention this in regards to the HoF's character issues?

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  43. If you validate the whole of Clemens' career, yes, he is a top-5 all time pitcher and possibly the greatest ever. But I can't be rational or reasonable or charitable or suspend my disbelief to that guy. I rather think that if he didn't have a steroid-fueled second half of his career after leaving Boston, one that didn't feature him throwing 99 mph at age 38, he wouldn't be close to being "arguably, the greatest pitcher of all-time." Still a HOF yes, undoubtedly a HOF, but I'd wager he would've fallen short of 300 wins and 4000 strikeouts and ended up with fewer Cy Youngs.

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  44. So, we're OK with racists, and we're OK with drunks, and we're OK with people who cheated in other ways (greenies, spitballs, etc.), but steroids is where we're going to draw the line? That's dumb.

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  45. Hey, Joe-

    QUICK QUESTION: "Brilliant reader *Barry* asks this question - before Pujols, was Jeff Bagwell the best first baseman in National League history."

    I sent the exact same question/email only... I'm not Barry. Never been Barry. Don’t even know a Barry (outside of the basketball-playing Barrys). Not trying to shout, "Look at me! Look at me!" - I'm just curious: Did you get more than 1 "Bagwell was the best NL first baseman before Pujols" emails or did you just mix up the names? I've been touting that for YEARS on various boards so I'd be interested to find out if its actually catching some traction (as I suggested it needed to if we're going to get Bagwell elected) or if someone else is as independently brilliant as me. 

    Sincerely,
    Definitely Not Barry

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  46. Stephen, I'm not glossing over a stabbing. Cobb was a bad guy.
    I guess it took all this discussion and all these blog posts for me to figure it out, but if you look at any deserving players who are not in the HoF (not including eligible players), there are only two mortal lock players that come to mind for me. Pete Rose and Shoeless Joe Jackson. They were both gamblers. That's where the line was previously drawn.
    Thus, guys of bad character are in (Cobb), cheaters are in (Perry) and illegal drug users are in (Aaron and a host of others). So I guess the issue with steroids is not about character, cheating or illegal drug use at all.
    It's about something else, and what that is must be shared with gambling. I think it basically is about the integrity of the game, if you'll excuse such a generic term. Gambling cuts to the core of competition. Are we really watching two teams compete, or is one team trying to lose? Steroids, I guess, do the same. Did Mark McGwire really hit 70 HR, or was it the result of unnatural chemical enhancement without which he wouldn't even come close?

    I think this is the crux of the matter.

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  47. I think if the HOF can be comfortable without the hit king, it can be comfortable without the HR king.
    (I'd put 'em both in, but that's just me)

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  48. For me "Best first baseman in NL history (pre-Pujols)" and the name "Jeff Bagwell" don't immediately synchronize but then I'm thinking who was....??? I'm a bit older and I recall how McCovey would scare me to death but I'm sure some of Bagwell's stats are better. The thing is, McCovey played through the era when pitching dominated and he still raked with the best of them.

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  49. From Kyle Richardson (Fargo):

    "Steroids"...

    Unfortunately, this one word will now dominate all Hall of Fame talk for the next 30 years...

    "Did he?" "Didn't he?" "Does it seem like he did?"

    Even a player like Greg Maddox, who I can't imagine will ever be implicated as a steroid-user, is judged because of what he accomplished against players who were on steroids...

    Reading tens of thousands of words on the issue during the past two weeks, I have a few thoughts:

    1) Comparing Cobb to the "steroid era" players of today is ridiculous... Different eras and different points of views... Being a jerk off the field shouldn't relate to success on the field...

    2) Comparing Rose's plight to the "steriod era" players is also apples vs. oranges... A manager betting on individual games (or betting every game except for when a particular pitcher is starting) has ramifications that could extend well beyond an individual game... For example, if a manager keeps going back to his best bullpen arms because he has to win "now" and one of them blows out his arm, it effects the rest of the schedule--both for his team and every other team... I'm OK with Pete being kept out for gambling on the game, and as someone else pointed out, his accomplishments are still on display in the Hall--just not his plaque...

    3) Steroids vs. Amphetimines... More murky here... It seems as if "greenies" were generally accepted in baseball well into the 1980s, while somewhere in the 2000s a hard line in the sand (so to speak) was drawn in regards to steroids... I don't know how to compare the two, nor, really, what the difference is... Both artificially enhance your ability--amphetimines through heightened awareness on the field, steroids through artificial strength and enhanced recovery time... Is it just because steroids change the appearance of a player? Because strength is viewed differently than enhanced focus? Because "greenies" only seem like they'd help where steroids LOOK like they help...

    It just seems as if steroids are "more evil" than amphetimines, but I don't know... Just throwing it out as I haven't decided in my own mind...

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  50. @ Mark Daniel...If steroids are considered to cut to the core of competition, then amphetamines do as well. Did Hank Aaron really hit 755 home runs, or was it the result of amphetamines allowing him to play in games he would have rested for otherwise?

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  51. I see we have two different folks posting here as "Marco" - I am one of them and I just posted about McCovey. I think I'll get a different Google account name to lessen any confusion.

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  52. I don't think that Idelson was thinking about Cobb when he made his comments. He was probably thinking of guys like Shoeless Joe Jackson, Eddie Cicotte, and Pete Rose. I am less interested in his take on Cobb than I am in how he considers the inclusion of Gaylord Perry in the HOF, or the inclusion of what may be dozens of HOFers who regularly used amphetamines during their playing careers.

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  53. Let's try this...Okay, I'm no longer "Marco" - C'est la Vie!

    As long as Joe is still Joe!

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  54. Pretty naive to think that PEDs have, or ever will be, eliminated. Might as well close the elections down and make the HOF a monument to a bygone era

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  55. Stephen,

    I for one am not glossing over your argument (having now read it 3 times, it would be difficult to ignore it), but Idelson’s comment that the character clause “relates to the game on the field” and doesn’t “judge players socially” makes clear that the Hall does not care about things that happen off the field and do not directly impact game play. In no way, shape, or form do I endorse or agree with that rationale, but it is consistent with accepting racist assaulters while leaving (presumed) steroid users on the outside looking in. As for Cobb's gambling, I think Landis’s whitewash of the incident allowed everyone else to ignore it.
    [It does not explain the distinction between scuffing balls and steroids, but that does not relate to Cobb.]

    In the end, the Hall’s presence in Cooperstown is based on a deliberate disregard of facts and logic, so expecting it to accept facts and logic now is probably asking too much.

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  56. I wonder how many of the HOF voters who didn't vote for McGwire/Palmeiro (and to some degree, Bagwell, since some people assume he was on steroids without any proof) have done any of the following...

    ...drank beer before being the legal age limit.
    ...driven while over the DUI limit.
    ...excessively sped while driving.
    ...smoked a joint.
    ...did more serious drugs than pot.
    ...cheated on their spouse.
    ...cheated on their taxes.
    ...cheated on a test
    ...went to work under the influence of drugs or alcohol.
    ...lied about being sick to get a day off.

    I could go on and on. I highly doubt that there are many (any?) HOF voters that didn't do any of these things at one point in their life. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." But none (or at least very few) are without sin. People cheat and do illegal things all the time. Some of the things people cheat on, they feel justified in doing. Take speeding. Just like some baseball players took steroids - baseball as an institution looked the other way and let it all happen. The collective BBWAA is a joke. Not all writers by any means. But collectively, they look terrible IMO. They cheat as much in life as anyone else. They didn't report all the steroid stuff as it was happening in its heyday. But yet despite that, they act like the morality police with their HOF votes now. Yes, I realize that a lot of the cheating I mentioned may not directly affect their profession. Nonetheless, you have cheaters forgetting that they cheat in a lot of things too and they're casting out the steroid users. I hate that steroids affected a game I love in baseball. I can't stand Barry Bonds and hate that he has Hank Aaron's record. But you can't just whitewash an entire era (or almost an entire era) and pretend that these guys weren't the best of the best. Arggh, this whole thing is a mess and its gonna eventually stop a lot of people from following baseball I think. The bottom line is the collective BBWAA should stop trying to play detective/morality cop and just vote for players based on their numbers. That's all you can really do that makes sense. Any writer who does otherwise is a hypocrite.

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  57. @Mark Daniel-

    "Did Mark McGwire really hit 70 HR, or was it the result of unnatural chemical enhancement without which he wouldn't even come close?"

    As I posted elsewhere yesterday, Mark McGwire really swung a real bat at real baseballs, thrown by real pitchers who were really trying to get him out (and many of whom were using real steroids to improve their own performance), and he hit them over real walls 70 times. Sure as hell sounds like he really hit 70 to me. I think it's easier to say that the issue with steroids is absolutely illegal drug use, cheating, or character, and that inducting steroid users is absolutely in line with the historical standards of the Hall of Fame. Trying to tie them more closely to gambling than to amphetamines or corking your bat is truly tortured logic.

    Although if you prefer, we can play this game in the opposite direction:

    Did Maris really hit 61 home runs, or was it the effect of an expansion year and eight extra games played over what had ever been scheduled before, without which advantages he never would have come close?

    Did Ruth really hit 60 home runs, or was it the effect of a league in which several of the most talented pitchers of his generation were ineligible to play, and which had not yet adjusted to one man who swung with an unorthodox uppercut swing, without which advantages he wouldn't have even come close?

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  58. Here’s the thing that really irks me about Idelson’s statements and the power given to the BBWAA: These are baseball *writers*; not baseball scientists or baseball researchers or baseball doctors. They’re WRITERS. I don’t necessarily have a problem with them playing judge and jury but who in h-e-double hockey sticks appointed them experts on the effects of steroids and how to spot a user? The idea that "more muscles + better power = steroids" is so simplistically naïve and ignores a wealth of additional, documented benefits that aren’t as easy to discern.

    So if you’re going to suspect some players from this era, you have to suspect ALL players from this era - you can’t arbitrarily pick and choose who’s guilty and you certainly can’t apply nonsensical standards that are based on nothing more than a very rudimentary understanding of a subject that is anything but rudimentary.

    Greg Maddux pitched until he was 42. At 36, he was, statistically, one of baseball’s best pitchers. In the five years after he turned 36, up through the age of 40, he was still an above-average (albeit slightly) starting pitcher. IMO, that *should*, in *this* era, be every bit as suspicious as a guy bulking up and hitting more HRs. But will the writers’ imaginary grasp of the effects of steroids and how to spot users ensnare Maddux? Oh, no – he’ll go in first ballot with likely the highest voting percentage in history. I think that’s extremely disingenuous.

    You either universally apply your suspicions to ALL of baseball during that era or you bury those suspicions and vote on the individual player’s merits only. What they’re doing now, IMO, is a straight-up witch hunt: If they sink, they’re guilty. And it is, frankly, disgusting.

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  59. What most appalls me is the number of votes for Jeff Bagwell. I'm NOT saying that he's a slam dunk or even necessarily should be inducted, it's the fact that some writers did not vote for him because of steroids. Why? Because he was a big guy who was a power hitter? That really seems to be the "evidence" against him. And so, Clemens threw 98 at 38 (didn't Ryan probably? Walter Johnson?) so he's out, guess Ripken couldn't have possibly stayed on the field for that many games in a row, unvote him, nobody could have possibly broken Maris' (or Aaron's) record, so Sosa, McGwire and Bonds are out.

    Baseball is, more than any other sport, psychotically attached to "things were better in my day". Great players do come along, and a select few may be better at certain things than those in the past. That seems childishly obvious, but is constantly obscured by excuses that are not definitively supportable.

    Steroids, under that or another name, are not going away. Ever. And amphetamines are at least in the same ballpark as steroids. As is coffee, for god's sake. I happen to believe that sabremetrics will advance to the point where either 1) steroids (and speed) use can be quantified (I think unlikely) or 2) ten-fifteen years from now it will STILL be inconclusive. Then certain players will get in, though I suspect someone like Palmeiro will not.

    The morality of the players is a foolish basis. Whether it affected the game on the field may not be, but until someone can really say to what degree (which I think is impossible), I find the steroid argument to be nonsense.

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  60. dvann2, my only point was that if your infraction changed the integrity of the game, i.e. made the events of a baseball game become less credible, that's what has gotten you into trouble with HoF voters.
    Greenies and spitballs didn't quite do that, but gambling did, and so far steroids have as well.

    As for Chris McClinch's point about Maris or others, I don't think anyone had a problem with Maris' HRs or Ruth's or all the .400 hitters in the past. There are different eras and the game is different in each one. I don't think anybody disputes that. The steroid era has gone to a different level, though. I believe that it's because of this credibility issue.

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  61. @Mark Daniel-

    I agree that the steroid era has gone to a different level today, but I think that's mostly because we as a society lack any sense of historical perspective. Do steroids fundamentally change the context in which today's home runs are hit? Of course. Do they change the context more than Maris's or Ruth's advantages? I'm not sure.

    Credibility is a dodge in my opinion. It begs several questions that need to be asked:

    1. Are home runs hit under some conditions more or less credible than home runs hit under others?

    2. If so, are biochemical considerations the only ones that make home runs less credible? Or do parks, eras, schedules, integration, etc. affect the credibility of home runs as well?

    3. If the only thing that can make home runs less credible is biochemistry, is it a range of biochemical considerations?

    4. If greenies make a slugger more alert and focused than he otherwise would have been, are his home runs less credible?

    5. If he lifts weights and adjusts his diet and supplementation to maximize natural testosterone production and therefore becomes stronger than he otherwise would have been, are his home runs less credible?

    6. If a hitter does everything to maximize testosterone production and ends up stronger and with higher test levels than a hitter who juices but drinks, doesn't get adequate rest, and follows a poor lifting program, whose home runs are more credible? Why?

    7. If a hitter has Lasik surgery that results in better than 20/20 vision, are his home runs credible?

    8. If a hitter has a fortunate mutation (say a myostatin deficiency) that causes him to be abnormally muscular (and we're talking far more muscular than many competitive bodybuilders; Google myostatin-deficient cattle), are his home runs credible?

    I don't think that most of the people crying foul over steroids have really thought the issue through at all and are instead giving us their knee-jerk reactions that these home runs are unnatural. That's not good enough in my opinion--particularly since there's nothing natural about picking up heavy stuff and putting it back down again for an hour or so 3-4 times a week and eating a gram of protein per pound of bodyweight in the first place.

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  62. All of the circumstantial evidence of steroid use used to implicate people can easily be used to implicate anyone. For example, claiming that Clemens must have been helped by steroids because he still pitched well in his late 30s means Nolan Ryan and Greg Maddux were also users. Different people peak at different times for different amount of times. The standard can not only be applied to big guys or power hitters; we have the same amount of evidence implicating Alomar as we do Bagwell, but that doesn't seem to matter.

    And no one has yet been able to explain how steroids help a hitter spot and make contact with a changeup or splitter. And if you do think steroids were so omnipresent and so effective, you must assume the people pitching to these power hitters were doing it too, off setting the advantage.

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  63. @Dave V. - I know of at least one member of the BBWAA that has a DUI, because he fessed up to it, and has repeatedly apologized/thrown himself under the bus/whatever in his columns over the years. He is also one of the biggest "OMG; he used steroids? How dare he besmirch the game of baseball" honks, too. That double standard exists with the writers, and as long as they are the ones voting, it'll continue to exist.

    Just another thought, after reading the article; why the hell did it take 5 years for Eddie Mathews to be inducted?

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  64. UHD,

    "Just another thought, after reading the article; why the hell did it take 5 years for Eddie Mathews to be inducted?"

    Two things, his batting average and likely the competition. Killebrew also took several years. We've come to think of guys hitting various milestones as being automatic electees. Thing is history has proven that most who achieve those milestones do make it eventually but not necessarily on first try.

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  65. @Dodger300: how about you throw some actual evidence down when you throw your slime brush at Puckett, Gaetti, Hrbek, & Bruno? Puck went from being a skinny little guy who gradually got bigger (and kept on getting bigger to the point where he was easily over 300 lbs after he retired). That's not a 'roid guy, that's someone who can't stop eating. Hrbek was always a big kid and a power hitter, as were Bruno & the Rat. Puck's jump in power also coincided with a league-wide jump that is widely attributed to a juiced up ball, and he slid back down to being a guy who hit in the 15-25 HR range.

    I think the really interesting question coming up is Bonds. I think he did use various PEDs, but when did it start? What if was in 1999 after seeing the adulation McGuire & Sosa got? Barry already has 7 All-Star appearances, 7 Gold Gloves, and 3 MVPs! Somewhere in his mid-to-late 30's is when Barry was on the juice, but at a certain point wasn't he just apdding the stats on a career that was HoF worthy even without the stuff? His 1993 season is an all-timer...was he still clean?

    Clemens has some of the same issues. We think he started using when he left Boston. But Clemens has a pretty good HoF case based just on the Boston years. led the league in ERA+ 5 times, complete games twice, shutouts 5 times, K's 3 times, 3 Cy Youngs, 5 All-Stars...at a certain point the PED Clemens was just piling on too.

    It's a little different for a guy like Palmeiro, who put up a lot of good seasons through his 20's, but it's the sustained numbers through his mid-to-late 30's that got him to 3000 hits and 500 HRs and those are the years where he's seen as a cheater. It's easy to look at Raffy and think he's a guy who would be a Hall of Very Good contender and not Hall of Fame if not for the PEDs, especially if you believe he started using in his 2nd stint in TX and averaged 43 HRs over 5 years from age 34-39. He's easy to leave off then. It's kinda like McGuire. But Bonds & Clemens are much harder calls.

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  66. On a trivial note, here's a neat little Sporcle quiz about all the Hall of Famers Blyleven struck out in his career: http://www.sporcle.com/games/CorneliusTree/BertKs

    Number one cracks me up. I guess they both played in the same league for so long, but still: dang.

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  67. ...drank beer before being the legal age limit.
    ...driven while over the DUI limit.
    ...excessively sped while driving.
    ...smoked a joint.
    ...did more serious drugs than pot.
    ...cheated on their spouse.
    ...cheated on their taxes.
    ...cheated on a test
    ...went to work under the influence of drugs or alcohol.
    ...lied about being sick to get a day off.

    Dave,

    You wonder how many writers did one of those offenses? My guess is everyone has done a few. Heck, I'm almost 50 so I think I managed 8 out of 10.

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  68. @LargeBill - that's my point.

    @UnHoly Diver - I agree that the double standard will continue to exist (unfortunately).

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  69. So using steroids is evidence of bad character but spitting in an umpire's face isn't? Right....

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  70. "my only point was that if your infraction changed the integrity of the game, i.e. made the events of a baseball game become less credible, that's what has gotten you into trouble with HoF voters.
    Greenies and spitballs didn't quite do that, but gambling did, and so far steroids have as well."

    Again, Cobb and Speaker did in fact fix at least one game. Dimaggio and Aaron and everyone else used greenies. And Perry, Ford and Sutton at least and certainly many other pitchers scuffed the ball and used spitballs. You're differentiating between a number of things that all "impact on the integrity of the game", and there's no real ryhme or reason to why one form of cheating is more awful than any other.

    Again I want to know who among those members of the BBWAA today is all hot and bothered about the "integrity of the game" today and yet not long ago gave Gaylord Perry 75% of their vote. Is there something cute or cuddly about a pitcher cheating like that they thought endearing? How do you give him such a pass and now decide this is the big stand on integrity?

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  71. Actually, I see Mark Daniel's point. Although I think greenies have much the same effect as steroids (and have benefited from a more innocent sounding name), perception does play an enormous factor in the votes of these writers. Therefore, the next step should be to flood the inboxes of sanctimonious BBWAA voters and tell them that baseball fans want players from the Steroid Era to be represented in the Hall of Fame.

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  72. and of course....

    we must throw out any player that ever had surgery without which they would no longer be able to play in MLB. Tommy John surgery is WAY more invasive and WAY more connected with a continued (and even bettered) career. It's not "natural", it's not something the average schlub might have done. Lasik is an even better example. It's elective for you and I, but for a player, it's more important. I myself wear glasses, but never could play with glasses on. Depth perception isn't quite right. But then glasses should be out too, that's a prosthesis, isn't it?

    Perfectly legal. As (ahem) were steroids. Do we really take seriously the notion that if an MD prescribed them it's different? The argument that a player making $10 million per year is copping steroids in an alleyway is absurd. I assume that BALCO was competent and were paid handsomely. What if it's eating nothing but beets 100& of the time? Then what do we do? Is it fair or unfair that a superstar may have a million-dollar gym and a $250,000 trainer?

    There are indeed double-standards all over the place. By this logic, I don't know, Jim Abbott should be in. Why don't people argue that?

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  73. I think the reason people between differentiate greenies and steroids is pretty easy to see...I don't know if it is a conscious or subconscious thought but in any case:

    1. People didn't know about greenies for prior players until many, many years after they retired. Steroids happened with our current players.

    and most importantly:

    2. Nobody came along and made a mockery of baseball stats by using greenies in the way that Barry Bonds did when he began using steroids.

    Whether they want to admit it or not, that's what I think is behind it all. Barry Bonds trashed existing records (at an older age no less). People hate Barry Bonds (because he's a jerk). Barry Bonds was one of the first to be perceived as the steroid era began to be unpeeled. Therefore, steroids are worse than other things.

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  74. Black Jack Morris seems to be the whipping boy of choice for the New Mathies here. It used to be Jim Rice, now it's Morris. I think of Morris as being a decent HOF candidate--like it or not 254 wins IS a lot, it IS impressive. I don't think his ERA is anything to write home about, but then again, we see Joe Poz here, Rob Neyer, Klaw, others-actively pushing for Mssrs. D. Evans, Nettles, Toy Cannon Wynn for inclusion.

    You can't have it both ways. Wynn's lifetime average of .250, Evans' .248 etc just don't cut it. If you're going to cherry pick a stat of Morris' that you don't like-his ERA certainly would be an outlier-then you best be ready to do the same for Toy Cannon and co. They're just as 'guilty' of having...erhm..questionable HOF cases, shall we say, as Black Jack. Morris in fact has a better one.

    Anyone who considers Morris to be a compiler best not be bringing up Darell Evans as a HOF'er, lets put it that way. He was the living definition of 'compiler'. He has all those pretty walk totals and it's a given he has zero shot of making it, so he's a 'safe horse' to back. He has as much chance of making it as Lee May or Bob Watson or Cesar Cedeno. Not gonna happen.

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  75. i'm as happy as anyone that blyleven finally made it in. but not if it means you'll be writing 10% less.

    find a new cause, joe!

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