There have only been a handful of men in baseball history who could carry the title of "Duke." Fast catchers have, at times, been called Dukes. The relatively speedy Deadball Era catcher Roger Bresnahan was called "The Duke of Tralee" -- an homage to his Irish heritage -- and former Royals catcher John Wathan who once stole 36 bases in a season is still called "Duke" around town, though that is mostly because he does a killer impression of John Wayne. Duke Sims couldn't run, but he too was a catcher, and he once hit 23 homers in a season. There have been a few other scattered Dukes, catchers and otherwise.
But, of course, there is really only one Duke in baseball history, Edwin Donald Snider, the Duke of Flatbush. His father started calling him Duke when he was just 5, and he was one of those pure athletes who could pull off the name. There were always fanciful stories about the athletic abilities of Duke Snider -- he supposedly could throw a football 70 yards, dunk a basketball without a running start though he was only 6-feet-tall, and in the words of Roger Kahn in the Boys of Summer he was "rangy and gifted and subtle. Duke could get his glove 13 feet in the air." Kahn explained that Snider was so athletic he used center field wall at Ebbetts Field like a vertical trampoline.
Duke Snider was an outsized character -- this should not be lost in death. He was flesh and blood, beloved beyond reason and booed beyond logic. As Bill James has written, "Sport Magazine in the 1950s used to alternate between two types of Duke Snider articles, the 'Why is Duke Snider Such A Dog' article and the 'Why Doesn't Duke Snider Get The Respect He Deserves" article. Phillip Roth (as Alexander Portnoy) called Snider "my king of kings, the Lord my God." Others called him loafer.
There are no such contrasts with Mays or Mantle or DiMaggio -- few in baseball history have ever animated both sides of the aisle quite like the Duke. You know, his first year on the Hall of Fame ballot, with the memory of his moody brilliance and beautiful strikeouts still sharp, he received only 17% of the vote, the same as Phil Cavaretta. It took 10 years of slow and bumpy momentum -- 17%, then 25%, back to 21%, up to 27%, a jump to 30% and so on -- before the Duke finally got his Hall of Fame votes. In 1980, he received a stunning and overwhelming 86.5% of the vote. It was as if all the writers decided at once that 10 years on the outside was the proper penance for the Duke of Flatbush.
* * *
Penance? Penance for what? Duke Snider was indisputably a great player, with his career 140 OPS+, his high career peak, his excellent defensive reputation. Penance for what? I have two theories. The first is a pure baseball theory -- it seems to me that Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle kind of ruined it for center fielders in the 1950s.
Third base has often been described as sort of a tweener position -- a position that doesn't have the defensive demands of shortstop and but has enough demands that many of the best hitters simply cannot play the position for very long -- and because of this there are fewer third baseman in the Hall of Fame than any other position. But if you look only at the 111 players who were voted into the Hall by the Baseball Writers, you will find that there have been just as few listed center fielders voted in as third basemen.
1B: 9
2B: 10
SS: 10
3B: 7
LF: 11
CF: 7
RF: 13*
C: 8
P: 36
*I never know what to do with Andre Dawson ... I've mentioned that Tom Tango says you have to list him as a centerfielder because that's where he was at his best. But he started 240 more games in right field. For the point I'm making here, temporarily we will call Dawson an "Outfielder." Then again, one of the seven third basemen is Paul Molitor who was really a designated hitter. And Tony Perez played a lot of third base. So the point is probably muted. Either way, there are not many centerfielders voted to the Hall.
This at first seems strange because centerfield seems such a glamour position, the only baseball position to inspire a No. 1 rock song* and the position of Willie, Mickey and the Duke. But maybe the glamour is exactly WHY so few center fielders are voted into the Hall of Fame. What I mean is ... well, Ted Williams was, at best, an indifferent left fielder. Reggie Jackson, for most of his career, was an indifferent right fielder. Ralph Kiner could do two things: Walk and slug. Lou Brock was a surprisingly poor outfielder. Willie Stargell, from his youngest days, couldn't run. Jim Rice was undoubtedly better defensively than his reputation, but that's in part because his defensive reputation was bad. Dave Winfield won a bunch of Gold Gloves though, other than the joy of watching him uncoil and throw, there is little supporting evidence that he was even an average right fielder in New York. And so on.
*If you call John Fogerty's "Centerfield" rock ... maybe I've just heard it too much.
Point is, for corner outfielders we tend to be pretty lenient when it comes to apparent flaws. If the guy could hit, really hit, and he had a reasonably long career, the voters check the Hall of Fame box no matter how little he may have offered in every other phase of the game. Manny Ramirez, I have little doubt, will go to the Hall of Fame someday. This is true for other positions too -- Ozzie Smith, for most of his career, was a below-average hitter.
But we accept few flaws when it comes to centerfielders. I have little doubt that, at their peaks, Fred Lynn and Dale Murphy and Jimmy Wynn and Andruw Jones and Jim Edmonds were better baseball players, markedly better, than any number of corner outfielders in the Hall of Fame. But the position took its toll on their bodies. Their career credentials are imperfect. And when it comes to centerfielders, Hall of Fame voters have little tolerance for imperfections.
I think that Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle inspired that feeling in voters -- DiMaggio too. They made centerfield unrealistic. They made the five-tool player seem like a natural thing. Andruw Jones in his younger days might have been the greatest defensive centerfielder in baseball history. His defensive statistics are otherworldly, and in this case the defensive statistics matched the eye. He was absurdly wonderful out there. And he also hit with immense power -- he averaged 35 homers a year between 1998 and 2007. But he hit for fairly low averages then, and he struck out a ton, and he regressed almost defiantly, and I don't think people will appreciate his brilliance over the years.
The problem is: Willie Mays did the same things as Jones, but he did them longer, and he hit better, and he ran faster ...
The problem is -- as I have written before -- nobody comes off looking too good when compared to Willie Mays.
So, I think that was Duke Snider's first issue. He, more than anyone, was compared daily to Mays and Mantle, and he was beat up often in the process. Snider, best I can make out, was good defensively but certainly no Mays. He hit for great power -- he led the league in homers in 1956 and hit 40-plus three other times -- but he was certainly no Mantle. He walked a lot but not like Mantle, he could run well but not like Mays, he had a powerful arm when he was young but hurt it and was never quite the same after he turned 30 while Mays went along brilliantly until he was 40 or so -- even the star-crossed and oft-injured Mantle almost won an MVP in 1964 when he was 32.
Being about 70% to 80% as good as Mickey Mantle or Willie Mays still qualifies someone as a great baseball player, but it's hard to think of it that way. It seems to me that the centerfield brilliance of Willie Mays has crowded our imagination and left us slightly jaded and numb to the notion of mere greatness.
My second theory revolves around something I've written about before and that is what I call the curse of gracefulness. Raul Ibanez is one of my favorite people, and one of my favorite players, but even I would not call him graceful as a player. He runs like my old Ford Escort drove uphill. You can almost hear the engine revving. He is all energy, all the time, legs pumping, arms pumping, sweat everywhere. When he is chasing a fly ball, he might get there, he might not get there, but there is little question about his sense of purpose.
The same is not true for Carlos Beltran ... or at least Carlos Beltran before he got hurt. Beltran was infinitely faster than Raul, and I mean infinitely -- if they were racing around the bases Beltran would round the bags an infinite number of times before Ibanez would round them once. Raul would admit this without hesitation. For this reason and others, Beltran was clearly and unquestionably a much better outfielder.
And yet ... I have absolutely no doubt that Beltran has been booed countless more times for his defense than Ibanez. Why? Well, in part because Beltran has the curse of gracefulness.* Beltran never quite looks like he is giving full effort. He never seems to be pushing against the edges of his potential. There may be some truth to this -- maybe Beltran has not always given full effort, and maybe he has not always lived up to his potential. But who does? Anyway, he is trying much harder than it looks like he's trying.
*For you Mets fans, I wrote an essay on Beltran for Amazin' Avenue which I am told will be in stores this week.
Duke Snider had this problem. For unto whomsoever much is given, shall be much required. Everything with Duke was grace and ease. His swing was beautiful and easy. His stride was natural and easy. The word is "easy." There's a telling story about Snider in The Boys of Summer about this time he was benched by manager Charlie Dressen for loafing on a fly ball. Kahn does not get into whether Snider actually was loafing -- he wasn't at that game -- and anyway the point of the story seemed to be that some of the writers ripped Snider which caused him to threaten to punch Dick Young in the face and so on.
Then, there is this rather startling paragraph:
"Three days later, Snider was back and for the rest of the season he played brilliantly. Dressen's impersonal brutality worked. I don't know what was more disturbing, that or the way Snider while hitting at a .400 pace, continue to discard his bat jubilantly when walked, joyous, as (writer Bill) Roeder had observed, not to face another challenge."
Kahn liked Snider a great deal, but even he could not help but think of Snider as a player uneasy with his own immense talents -- an underachiever. This, I think, is the curse of gracefulness. After he was benched in 1952, Snider hit .345 with 9 doubles and eight homers in 36 starts. He cracked two home runs against Cincinnati on Sept. 15 with the Giants trailing by only three games, and hit another homer the next night to lift the team to win over Pittsburgh.
But here's the big thing -- he walked a grand total of five times in those 36 starts. Five. Snider was generally a patient hitter. In 1955, he walked more than 100 times, and in 1956 he led the league in walks. But for more than a month, he swung freely, an obvious effort to turn up his aggressiveness. But even so, many years later Roger Kahn remembered Snider longing to walk, remembered Snider being thrilled for any reprieve against putting his own great talents to the test yet again.
I just think that certain people play their games so gracefully and make it all look so easy that people cannot help but judge them ... and judge them harshly. Coaches always thought Eric Dickerson wasn't running all out because he ran so gracefully. And Duke Snider's grace -- along with his own difficulties to deal with the impossible expectation -- led to a perception of him, a perception that led to those competing stories in Sport Magazine, that he was a dog and that he was not given his due respect.
* * *
One thing that's funny about Duke Snider is that, on almost every All-Time Centerfielders List I see, he is ranked the seventh-best centerfielder in baseball history. Yes, some will have him sixth, others eighth, but it's almost always seven. I think it's kind of funny to have that sort of consensus about someone being seventh, but if you look at the players ranked ahead of him it actually makes sense.
1. Willie Mays is first on almost every list. Occasionally, someone will throw Ty Cobb up there for argument's sake, but it's usually Mays.
2. Ty Cobb is probably second, unless you are one of those people who put him first. Occasionally someone will put Mantle or DiMaggio up here, knock down Cobb for the era when he played and his general surliness, but that seems kind of petty.
3. Tris Speaker is third in WAR -- both Fangraphs and Baseball-Reference. Bill James puts Mantle here.
4. Mickey Mantle probably belongs here, but the lists I've seen bounce all over the place -- from DiMaggio to Griffey to Speaker ...
5. Joe DiMaggio seems the right choice, but again it's all over the place -- I've seen everyone mentioned up to now except Mays in this spot.
6. Ken Griffey seems sixth by most references, but again it's tricky. I've seen a couple of lists Negro Leagues great Oscar Charleston here, which I find a little strange. Many people who saw Charleston -- including Buck O'Neil -- say he was the best to ever play. And of course, most people never saw him at all. So I don't really understand ranking him sixth. I'm guess he was either one of the all-time greats or he wasn't, but he probably wasn't sixth. Bill James boldly ranks Charleston the fourth-best player of all time -- only Mays ahead among centerfielders -- and I would probably think along the lines.
7. Duke Snider.
It's crazy. No matter what order the Top 6 seem to be in, no matter what players are in there, people tend to put Snider seventh. It's almost as if everyone sees Duke Snider as not QUITE as good as the legends, but ALMOST as good. Well, every great player has his own legacy, and this is the legacy of the Duke.
* * *
In 1955, Snider should have won the MVP award. Well, in fact, Willie Mays was probably the best player in '55, but Mays was probably the best player in the National League in 1954, '55, '57, '58, '60, '61, '62, '63, '64 and '65, and they weren't about to give him 10 MVP awards, so this was a good year to give it to someone else. The writers DID give it to someone else.
And it seems pretty apparent to me that Snider was the right choice. He was second in the league in on-base percentage (.418) to Richie Ashburn, second in slugging (.628) to Mays, led the league in runs scored (126), led the league in RBIs (136) and so on. Some of this was helped along by the hitter-friendly Ebbetts Field, but it was still a great year.
Snider's teammate Roy Campanella had a great year too ... but in my mind it was decidedly not as great as the Duke. For one thing, he played 25 fewer games as catchers will. For another, Snider put up bigger numbers offensively. And while catching is unquestionably the most demanding defensive position -- physically and mentally -- centerfield as mentioned is plenty tough too and Snider was a good centerfielder.
Anyway, Campanella had already won two MVPs by then which should not play into voters thinking but in almost every case DOES play into their thinking. But not this time.
So what happened? Well, for one thing, Snider was a difficult guy. In late July, he was hitting .330 and slugging better than .700 and looked on his way to a season for the ages. Then he went into a pretty massive slump, the fans started booing him -- the fans in Brooklyn, like Sport Magazine, loved him and despised him in equal measure -- and he snapped that they were the "worst fans in the league." He started hitting again after that, and pretty soon everything was forgiven.
Well ... maybe not everything. When the season ended, though Snider had clearly the better counting numbers, he and Campanella both got eight first place MVP votes. The other eight votes went to Ernie Banks (six votes), Robin Roberts (one vote for what was actually a down season for him) and, somewhat absurdly, Pee Wee Reese (one vote). Reese was a terrific player, a Hall of Famer, but he was 36 that year, and he was quite apparently declining (he never had another good year) and he so clearly did not have as good a year as either of his teammates.
In any case, because of the split vote the thing was really decided by the other ballots, and when everything was totaled up Campanella beat out Snider by five points. The final scoring looked like so:
Campanella: 8 first place votes (112 points); 6 second place (54); 3 third place (24); 4 fifth place (24); 3 seventh place (12). Total: 226.
Snider: 8 first place votes (112 points); 4 second place (36); 2 third place (16); 5 fourth place (35); 3 fifth place (18); 1 seventh place (4). Total 221.
You can look through that and figure out who you think deserved it based on the breakdown. Campy had more second and third place votes which I think is pretty telling. But another way to look at it is that Campanella appeared on all 24 ballots. Snider appeared only on 23. And that's where the story turns.
The story that has been told -- most recently by Tracy Ringolsby -- is that one of the voters who was in the hospital (this turns out to be important later) had put Campanella down both as a first place vote and fifth place vote. The assumption was that he meant to put Campy first and Snider fifth (or the other way around) but had put Campy down twice by mistake. The assumption was strengthened by the fact that Snider was nowhere else on the ballot.
Tracy writes that the BBWAA "never could get a clarification of the voter's intention," which seems bizarre to me but I can only guess that's where the hospital part comes in. Anyway, if the man's ballot had been disqualified, as it probably should have been, Snider would have won by three points. If they had put Snider into the fifth spot instead of Campy, he would have won by one point. But the decision made instead was plain bizarre -- they decided to accept a flawed ballot with Campanella getting a first place vote and a blank spot in fifth place. And that's how Campy won his third MVP.
The story sounds a bit too pat, doesn't it? They couldn't find the voter's intention? Why not? Why was he in the hospital? Did he die? And it just so happens that the writer had the second Campy FIFTH so that it would have given Snider a one-point victory? Like I say, it all sounds a bit too convenient, and I have learned from Rob Neyer that convenient stories are rarely entirely true.
BUT when I went back into the newspaper archives I found that it is indeed documented that there was one ballot that left off Snider entirely. That was mentioned in a Stars and Stripes story, not as an outrage but as a simple statement of fact. It's also possible that someone left off Snider entirely out of spite -- Snider was not a favorite of sportswriters.
Whatever happened -- whether it was a sick writer or an angry one -- one thing that is striking about the post-MVP stories is that there a bit of an outrage. Arthur Daley, in fact, wrote in the New York Times that Campanella was the right choice, others in smaller papers seemed to follow.
Nobody in the papers I saw stood up for Duke Snider. Nothing was ever easy with Duke Snider, except for the easy swing and the easy grace and the easy name. Few baseball player have ever been called Duke. Only one was The Duke.
* * *
I should add one more thought here: I was talking to a friend on Monday who grew up in Chicago in the 1950s, and he told me that at Wrigley Field he once saw Duke Snider strike out swinging three times and then crush a grand slam home run that won the game. This too seemed like something make believe, like something someone might romantically remember but never really happened ...
... except it did. On May 15, 1951, the Dodgers and Cubs played at Wrigley, and Bob Rush started for the Cubs and he struck out Snider swinging three times. The Duke wasn't exactly a legend then -- he was just 24 -- but he had led the league in hits the year before, and he led the league in strikeouts in '49 and he had a reputation.
"Look out," my friend remembers his father saying when Pee Wee Reese walked to load the bases in the seventh. The Cubs led 4-3. Snider walked to the plate. "He had that way of walking," my friend said. "Unforgettable."
Rush had tired. Calvin Coolidge Julius Caesar Tuskahoma McLish was pitching for the Cubs. Cal McLish said that his father had named him. He was known for many things, mostly his name, but also for the time when he was pitching for Cleveland against Boston in May '57 and gave up a homer to Gene Mauch, followed by a homer to Ted Williams, followed by a walk to Jackie Jensen, followed by a homer to Dick Gernert, followed by a homer to Frank Malzone.
In any case, Duke Snider crushed a long home run against McLish, the grand slam, and what my friend remembers is watching Snider run around the bases while Chicago peoiple booed. What he remembers even more, though, is probably the most telling thing anyone could say about Duke Snider.
My friend remembers that in that moment he knew he would never forget.
Circle Me Tom Wopat
ReplyDeleteUnless I'm mistaken there's a second Duke who pitched for the Yankees in the late eighties. Once threw at his own kid during a father-son game...
ReplyDeletein depth. informative. and still manages to touch on carlos beltran. what could be better?
ReplyDeleteI listened to Duke broadcast for the Montreal Expos. He was a wonderful storyteller with a great, mellow voice, frequently ending his praise for a player with the phrase "... and that's not too shabby." He excelled at his second career, and I'm glad to know so many people will have fond memories of Duke as a player and a broadcaster.
ReplyDeleteDon't mean to get all editor-y on you, Joe, but when you write "the point is probably muted," I think you mean, "the point is probably moot." Moot, according to Miriam-Webster, means "open to question, debatable," and is most often used, as you seemed to intend here, to acknowledge that a particular claim is so arguable or debatable that a clear conclusion can't be made...
ReplyDeleteKeep up the good work!
@Jay, I think he means muted. Muted means toned down, and I think Joe's choice of words was better and, more to the point, more accurate, than your editing. The point he was talking about was not totally moot, or, essentially pointless to argue, it was made less strong; i.e. muted.
ReplyDeleteIf you are going to masquerade as an editor, please be accurate. Otherwise, you come off as ignorant and full of you know what.
Love the post, Joe. Keep up the great work.
No, stickpaste, Jay is correct. Joe was making the point that there were only nine Third Basemen in the Hall of Fame, but one of them played more games at DH than third base so there would only really be eight. But Tony Perez is in as a first baseman while he is naturally and started his career at third base so it really evens out. So, the point of Molitor really being a DH is moot, since there's an extra third baseman in as a first baseman so we still end up with nine third basemen.
ReplyDeletePointing it out in the comments is just annoying and nitpicking, though.
Joe - no doubt all you say is true but many of your readers (at least me) remember Duke Snider from Expos broadcasts in Canada. He's the one who gave the commentary on Tim Raines and centerfielder, Andre Dawson.
ReplyDelete[The guy posting as "Jay" above is someone else. Stupid remark, too.]
ReplyDeleteThis is one of the most interesting pieces I've seen here, specifically in terms of the historical stuff you dug up for it. I remember talking to Raab a few years back about the curse of gracefulness, specifically the way gracefulness and other attributes seem to be characterized differently according to the ethnicity of the player. We talked about Beltrán, and we talked at the time about Franklin Gutierrez, who in the time since seems to have gotten his due. So that's progress, I guess.
I had never quite noticed the underrepresentation of center fielders in the Hall, though I'm quite aware of the lack of third basemen. I think the Mays-Mantle problem is echoed pretty clearly as the Schmidt-Brett problem, with Brooks Robinson in the Dimaggio slot.
The most stirring point, here, is about the character judgment attached to Snider's walks, even at the most inapt times. I have to think that phrase won't be written in the new century, when attitudes toward walking have changed fairly dramatically. Kahn saw "relief" on Snider's face, but maybe what Snider really felt was the obvious thing: Victory. He had outwitted the pitcher and was taking his base. He was not abdicating his talent by drawing the walk, but rather utilizing it. It's Kahn's failure that he did not understand that.
Ya seriously Jay #1, you are getting some of the best writing out there for free. Enjoy it for what it is and don't play editor.
ReplyDeleteNo Ivguy, stickpaste is correct. The point: "I never know what to do with Andre Dawson..." CF or RF is muted, less of an issue because of the corresponding uncertainty over the number of third basemen in the Hall of Fame. It isn't mute...i.e., non-existent, it is muted, less of an issue.
ReplyDeleteCFs seem to fade. It's a whatever-happened-to position. would-be HOF CFs:
ReplyDeleteGrady Sizemore
Carlos Beltran
Freddie Lynn
Cesar Cedeno
Andre Dawson (he's in, I know)
Andruw Jones (might make it)
Vernon Wells
Bobby Murcer
Eric Davis
Dale Murphy
Dwayne Murphy
Guys who lasted:
Griffey JR
Bernie Williams
Johnny Damon (moved to CO)
Torii Hunter
Reggie Smith (moved to CO)
Ellis Burks (moved to CO)
Jim Edmonds (hurt a lot)
Rick Monday (moved to CO)
Kenny Lofton
Devon White
Brett Butler
Steve Finley
Mike Cameron
others:
Amos Otis
Rondell White
Garry Maddox
Lloyd Moseby
Carl Everett
Jimmy Wynn
Andy Van Slyke
Willie Davis
Gracefulness is not always the problem-the perception of passion for excellence is far more important. Yankee fans loved the un-graceful but intense Paul O'Neill because he gave every ounce of himself, and they idolize the unearthly cool and elegance of Mariano Rivera because they know he never gives in. Roy Halladay and Albert Pujols are the same way-along with that great talent comes a palpable competitiveness. As to the dearth of centerfielders, I don't necessarily think that Willie and Mickey set too high a bar (you could apply the same standard to right field and Babe Ruth). I think it's more likely that centerfielders are the running-backs of baseball. It's too physical a position for most to play at a high level for an extended period of time, and, if you can really hit, the manager wants your bat out there more than your glove, so the corner spots seem safer.
ReplyDeleteI like the running back comparison. I think there's some truth to that.
ReplyDeleteJoe--b-r shows that all the possible points for the 1955 NL MVP were awarded, which means there was no missing 5th place vote. But feel free to check my math. I get 24 voters x 59 (=14+9+8+7+6+5+4+3+2+1) points per voter = 1,416, which is the amount of points in the voting total shown here:
ReplyDeletewww.baseball-reference.com/awards/awards_1955.shtml#NLmvp
It seems that center fielders are chosen for their defense, and don't stack up offensively against the corner fielders when their careers are measured. The running back comparison comes into play, as the legs often go and the center fielder moves to a corner position.
ReplyDeleteI agree with lvguy20 and the 1st Jay, mooted fits. The fact that there is disagreement proves the need to be careful with words.
Thanks, Joe. A nice tribute to my mother's all-time favorite player. She still thinks he's the best centerfielder of his time, ahead of Mays and Mantle.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of the "curse of gracefulness" - I remember reading, years ago, a quote of a Negro Leagues player who said that people didn't think that Hank Aaron was as good as he actually was, because he made things look so easy. He felt that people discounted his play because didn't think he was trying that hard, only because Hank was so graceful.
ReplyDeleteThat has affected my opinion of Mr. Aaron as a player
btw justin-seibert - your mom's loyalty to the Duke is nice - but when you are behind Mays and Mantle, there's nothing wrong with being the third best centerfielder in town
ReplyDeleteAccording to baseball-reference.com the Duke hit 40 or more homes for five straight years, 1953-57.
ReplyDeleteJay, if you think "muted" should be "moot" then read it that way. Those who think "muted" is OK can read it their way.
ReplyDeleteEither way doesn't matter.
I'm not saying Joe should be given a free pass on everything. If he were to misquote the classics — say come out with "Lead on Macduff" or "Alas poor Yorick; I knew him well" — then fair enough, a gentle nudge would be in order. As it would if his maths didn't ring true or he incorrectly interpreted statistics.
And if he praises Selena Roberts again then let the wrath of Hell descend upon him.
But the rest of it? Let it slide.
— Graphite
hmmm. And I thought "lead on MacDuff" was right. But I never heard of a muted point, either. So I guess I'm no expert.
ReplyDeleteUnderminer - absolutely. I am too young to have watched any of them, but accept that Mays and almost definitely Mantle were better players based on the evidence. Still, it's pretty neat to imagine a young girl in Parkersburg, WV listening to the radio and catching games on tv when available to watch her hero. Then to see her still remember him with that joy a half-century later. Would my children be so lucky to experience that.
ReplyDeleteGreat post, Joe.
ReplyDeleteOne of my earlier baseball memories is meeting Duke Snider in a lithograph shop near my house. My dad, a lifelong Dodger fan, always gushes about that day--and the Duke, in general--whenever baseball comes up in conversation. Seemed like a very kind man.
Not sure of the validity of this story (my dad tends to have a very imaginative memory), but the one story my dad always tells about Duke is when the Dodgers first moved to L.A. They had to play in the Coliseum for awhile while they mowed down Chavez Ravine.
Apparently Duke didn't like people questioning his abilities, so one day when a reporter challenged him to throw a ball completely out of the stadium from the outfield, he proceeded to do it multiple times.
The Coliseum is absolutely massive. He had to have had one hell of an arm.
There was one occasion when I knew that Duke Snider was no longer getting the respect that I would have expected from The LADodgers and MLB. At the 1988 World Series Games #1 and #2 at Dodger Stadium, Duke Snider and a few friends were seated in decent but not great seats down the leftfield line, at least 20-25 rows up from the field. I know because I was in the same row a few seats further away from home plate. I expect that "The Duke" didn't like to throw his weight around demanding better seats and/or my boss had more pull with the Dodgers ticket office than I ever realized.
ReplyDeleteSorry for nitpicking, readers. It was in no way a criticism of Joe's skill as writer. We all make mistakes, and I think those of us (like Joe) who love their craft appreciate feedback.
ReplyDeleteAnd, yes, I totally agree that it could be "muted," and I don't ever point out silly little grammatical mistakes, because I agree with George Eilot when she wrote "grammar is the slang of prigs." But I couldn't help myself because "moot" is an exceptionally cool word, and I'd hate to see it ignored or passed by.
Peace.
Joe,
ReplyDeleteWonderful piece (as always), and Duke deserved kind words. One of my boyhood heroes in the late 50s/early 60s. Your piece made me think of the Hall of Fame, and how 'certain' positions are/seem to be under-represented. Possible columns: take a position at a time and make suggestions, from the 40s on up, players who might have been overlooked or dissed for one reason or another. Distill it down to perhaps to maybe the best 10, in your humble opinion, and let's send it to the voting committee!
This is a tremendous site that I've just discovered -- I'm a SABR member and a couple of days ago in our private List I had this comment-question about the Duke:
ReplyDeleteI think we all know that his batting statistics took a tremendous hit when he moved from the cosy confines of Ebbets Field to the truly vast right field spaces of the Coliseum. But I also remember reading at the time (I was a teenager living in L.A. in the late '50s and early '60s) that after a long period of frustration of hitting 400-foot outs into right field the Duke rashly grabbed a baseball once during practice and tried to throw it over the top of the Coliseum -- thereby adding a wrecked arm to his other problems.
Am I right in this memory? And is it true -- that a man who once had one of the greatest arms in baseball never again had a major-league arm?
*****************
Another SABR member replied by mentioning this wonderful article about the Duke....
Does anyone here know anything about what I wrote above? One comments I've just seen says that he *did* throw the ball out of the stadium (several times). Of course, he could *also* ruin his arm by doing so....
I also remember reading when I was young that Duke injured his throwing arm by either throwing or attempting to throw a ball out of the Coliseum. I have no idea if the story is factual. I presume it should be fairly easy to get to the bottom of it - There are many in LA who would know I presume...Vin Scully for one. With Joe's connections he could have an answer by midnight.
ReplyDeleteHi Joe,
ReplyDeleteI emailed you the day that Duke passed away. As I mentioned, he was my favorite Dodger from the great 50's team. I believe the thread that runs through your piece about him is what I observed as a boy watching the Dodgers on TV and in person at Ebbets Field from 1953-57, when they pulled up stakes for LA:
I believe that Duke was cursed because of his "easy way", as you put in virtually every aspect of his game. Because he made it look so easy, many people thought he "could have been better", to quote his teamate Clem Labine.
Compared to Willie Mays, for example,whose cap would come flying off in his first step or two chasing even a routine fly ball, Duke always seemed to make utterly impossible catches running up the padded walls of center field at Ebbets look almost routine.
I saw many battles between the Dodgers and the hated Giants of Leo Durocher, and I can tell you first hand, that Duke always seemed to come through in the clutch with a bomb over the right field fence onto Beford Ave.
To those of us who were privileged to watch Duke play almost every day, when every home game was televised on Ch. 9, as well as at the ballpark, he was truly baseball royalty, equal to Willie on a daily basis, and superior to Mantle in the 52,53,55 & 56 Series. As Yogi used to say, "you could look it up".
As always thanks for taking the time to inform those who never saw him how special he was, just as you did for Robin Roberts, my favorite pitcher of that era.
One last thing, right before Robin passed away last May, I had emailed him as his website, as to who was the toughest Dodger he faced in the 50's. He answered me on his website via live cam and said that Duke was the toughest of that great lineup, and that he had hit the most home runs of of Robin in his career.
Thanks again for you insights, they're way beyond the average sports journalist. Keep up the great work.
Stan W.
Re: throwing it out of the stadium
ReplyDeleteSince I wore out my childhood copy of Snider's autobiography (bought at Cooperstown), I can relay his version of the throwing the ball out of the Coliseum. Snider did have a strong arm, and his ship used to hustle bets while in the Navy by betting submariners that thay had a guy who could throw a baseball the length of the sub. Anyway, early on in the season, a bunch of players were trying to see if they could throw the ball out of the park, and one of them called Duke over to try. Some bets were made, and Duke gave his shot without properly warming up and killed his arm. He basically half threw for the season trying to let it recover and eventually won the bet on the last day of the season.
The other thing I really remember from the book was how Jackie was Duke's hero growing up, and remember Jackie run from a baseball game over to a track meet to jump in his baseball uniform (high or long, I don't remember) and run back to finish the game.
Yup, we were right -- here's a comment on the SABR List:
ReplyDeleteAn Associated Press story, found in the Ottawa (Ont.) Citizen of April
25, 1958, reported:
> Duke Snider, who tried to throw a ball out of the park and threw his
> arm out instead, is back at work.
>
> Los Angeles Dodgers disciplined their premier flychaser after he
> came up with a sore arm when engaging in a capricious throwing
> contest with Don Zimmer. Snider and Zimmer tried to toss baseballs
> over the Coliseum stands -- which rise 79 rows and 106 feet above
> the playing field -- before Wednesday night's game against the
> Chicago Cubs.
>
> When Snider was unable to play in the game, the club said he would
> be docked a day's pay, about $275, and would draw no more money
> until able to play again.
>
> The Duke said his arm still hurt Thursday. "But at those prices,
> I've got to play." So he did, and went one for three as the Cubs
> walloped Los Angeles 15-2. . . .
>
> Snider, incidentally, never did get a ball out of the park. His best
> throw landed somewhere around the 76th row.
Full text here:
http://news.google.ca/newspapers?id=Ajg0AAAAIBAJ&sjid=aPUIAAAAIBAJ&pg=3519,5269385&dq=duke+snider&hl=en
. “Duke was something said Dodger pitcher Ralph Branca in Peter Golenbock’s Bums. “He could fly, he could throw, he could hit, he had power, he could do it all. “When they ask who was better, Mays, Mantle or Snider, there’s no contest. Duke was a better outfielder than those guys by far. He got a better jump on the ball, he had a more accurate arm than either of them, and he played in the toughest ballpark.”
ReplyDeleteBranca's point on the ballpark was that all three of these guys could run forever to get to a ball (before the knee injuries), but Snider had the hardest job because Ebbetts was a very complicated park to play in.
@ Dan: Very interesting comment about the ballparks with regard to Wllie, Mickey & Duke. I make the argument in Joe's latest piece about Duke and MVP voting that people probably did not give Snider enough credit for his fielding abilities because he played in a much smaller outfield. Ebbets Field was a bandbox especially compared to the Polo Grounds and old Yankee Stadium. Folks were impressed that Willie and Mick to a lesser extent had far more ground to cover so they must have been better centerfielders than Duke. Perception beats out reality more often than not. Also, corner outfielders most often are praised for how they play caroms off of the unusual angles of the outfield walls. Very seldom are centerfielders mentioned in that realm.
ReplyDeleteOzzie Smith's offensive bWar is above 0.0 more often than not throughout his career. In fact he only had 4 seasons where he was within one win of 0.0 oWAR. He had 11 seasons above 2.0 oWAR, 8 seasons above 3.0 oWAR, and 4 seasons with 3.9 oWAR or higher. I don't know where you get the idea that for most of his career Ozzie Smith was a below average hitter.
ReplyDeleteMy partner and i make the disagreement inside Joe's latest part concerning Duke and also Most valuable player voting that men and women most likely didn't give Snider sufficient credit rating pertaining to his or her fielding capabilities because he played in a significantly more compact outfield. Ebbets Discipline would be a bandbox especially in comparison to the Polo Reasons along with outdated Yankee Ground. Individuals had been amazed that Willie and also Mick to your reduced level got much more terrain to pay so that they will need to have been recently much better centerfielders when compared with Battle each other. Belief is better than out there actuality most of the time.
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