Tuesday, February 15, 2011

Pujols and the Cardinals

A couple of months ago, I wrote that the Derek Jeter negotiation with the New York Yankees, while entertaining in its own voyeuristic way, was a lot like a comfortable movie. We always knew how it would end. They two sides could fight, there could be some raw feelings, they could be tension, there might even be a moment when a breakup seemed inevitable. But no breakup was possible. Derek Jeter needed the Yankees. The Yankees needed Derek Jeter. The fans needed them together. Just like Harry and Sally, Jim and Pam and The Eagles reunion tour, there were no alternate endings that made any sense at all. Jeter and the Yankees HAD to end up together.



The Albert Pujols-St. Louis Cardinals negotiation seems similar. The Cardinals need Albert Pujols. And Pujols, whether he fully appreciates it or not, belongs with the Cardinals. Baseball fans would like them to stay together (except those who would like to steal him away). It seems like the same thing, but it isn't the same at all. Pujols and the Cardinals could break up. More and more it looks like they WILL break up. The reason is obvious and a story almost as old as love. The reason is money.

See, in the Jeter situation there was never any doubt that Jeter was worth a lot more to the Yankees than anyone else. Sure, Jeter is probably the most famous player in baseball. He's probably the most widely respected player among people inside the game. He'd offer a ticket boost, I suppose, and a bit of local buzz. But Jeter is turning 37 years old this year, and he's coming off a season that suggests he's in decline, and he still wants to play shortstop though time clearly ticks on him playing baseball's second-most demanding defensive position.

So, what is a 37-year-old shortstop worth, one who hit .270 and slugged .370 while playing half his games in one of the American League's great hitter's parks? What is he worth if his name is not Derek Jeter? Marco Scutaro put up roughly the same year in 2011, he's a couple years younger, he's getting $6 million in 2011. And please: I am not comparing Marco Scutaro's history to Derek Jeter's -- Jeter is a first-ballot Hall of Famer and one of the four or five best hitting shortstops in baseball history. I am simply trying to estimate a player's worth. Baseball insiders suggested that Jeter, based on his age and pure performance projections might have been worth a two-year, $17 million deal.

But, of course, Jeter was worth MUCH more than that to the Yankees. He's worth much more to them because of his history with the team, his respect within the clubhouse, his ability to thrive in New York, his work ethic, his constant professionalism and so on. Do the Yankees believe Jeter still has enough left to rebound offensively and play a reasonable shortstop for the next three years? I'll bet there's a pretty wide difference of opinion on that within the organization. But with everything else involved, the Yankees are really the only team in baseball that had the impetus to bet big money on a Jeter comeback. The Yankees gave Jeter a three-year, $51 million deal. I'd guess no other team would have given him half that. But it made sense for the Yankees. Anyway, the Yankees have more money than Midas.*

*I don't mean King Midas. I mean Midas, the brake repair company.**

**Have you ever thought how strange it is that their slogan is "Trust the Midas touch?"


The Pujols-Cardinals relationship has some of the same general characteristics of Jeter-Yankees. From the Cardinals side, it should be pretty obvious to everyone how important it is to sign the best player in the game. We don't have to go into too much detail on that. For fun, we'll give you the start of some charts to gawk at:

All-time records through first 10 seasons:

Homers
1. Albert Pujols 408
2. Eddie Matthews 370
3. Ralph Kiner 369

Runs
1. Ted Williams, 1,273
2. Albert Pujols, 1,183
3. Joe DiMaggio, 1,146

RBIs
1. Joe DiMaggio, 1,277
2. Al SImmons, 1,275
3. Ted Williams, 1,261
4. Albert Pujols, 1,230

Runs Created
1. Ted Williams, 1,552
2. Albert Pujols 1,506

Wins Above Replacement
1. Ted Williams 86.2
2. Albert Pujols 83.8
3. Mickey Mantle 78.8
4. Willie Mays 76.3

OPS+ (min. 5,000 PAs)
1. Ted Williams 190
2. Ty Cobb 182
3. Lou Gehrig 181
4. Rogers Hornsby 180
5. Albert Pujols 172
(tie) Stan Musial 172

Yes, the Cardinals side of the negotiations is pretty plain.

From the Pujols side: He's obviously the biggest star in one of America's great baseball towns. The fans love him, he loves the fans, there is a connection there that happens very rarely in baseball. It is happening for Jeter in New York. It happened for Brooks Robinson in Baltimore. It happened for Johnny Bench in Cincinnati. It happened for George Brett in Kansas City. Before George Brett's last game, he famously kissed home plate at Kauffman Stadium while a full stadium cheered, and I guess I'm naive enough to think that sort of thing does matter. Brett has told me many times that he remembers that moment as vividly as his biggest home runs. What does a player have after his playing days? Money, sure. Rings, if he's lucky. Opportunities, maybe. But as much as anything: He has memories.

That's not to go all mushy and say that a player should do what he can to stay with one team all his life. That's dumb. It doesn't make sense for the vast, vast, vast majority of players. Most will get traded or low-balled or mistreated ... that's a part of business and part of the game. Most players will have to leave to get what they are worth, to get a better opportunity, to not be taken for granted.

But for someone iconic like Pujols, a player on his way to making a case as the greatest hitter in baseball history, a player who has all the love of a city that lives and breathes baseball, well, sure, he has a chance to be one of the most beloved players ever in the game.

I can't say I know Albert Pujols well, but I suppose I know him a little, and I think he understands fairly well what it would mean for him to stay in St. Louis. There's no way for a man at 31 to know what he will know at 50, after the cheering has faded, after the fame has congealed, but I do think he has a sense of history, of relationships, of how special it would be to play his whole career in St. Louis and to become a part of the city's history, not unlike someone else who is being honored today. More on that in a second.

But I also think that Albert Pujols feels under-appreciated. Why? I think that is part of his story. In high school, he was not even named first-team all-Kansas City by my former newspaper. He was constantly charged with being older than he claimed. He was not drafted. He went to Maple Woods Community College. He was drafted in the 13th round and was lowballed. He often says one of his hardest years was his first year in pro ball, when his family had no money, when few believed him. This is part of his baseball history, it is part of his life history, and it is having the strength and faith to work through all these things that helped Albert Pujols become the player he has become. He was driven to prove something to all those who doubted him. The doubters mostly have gone away. But I suspect that hunger and that feeling to prove them wrong has not.

Baseball, like life, often rewards people for leaving. Think about the biggest pay raises you have received in your life. They probably came when you went to another job, or at least when you were OFFERED another job. I don't know if familiarity breeds contempt, but it certainly breeds apathy. Albert Pujols, for putting up 10 of the greatest seasons in baseball history, has been paid roughly $85.5 million by the Cardinals. Fangraphs calculates his value over those 10 years at roughly $285.5 million. That's a pretty big gap.

Of course, this is because baseball is set up so that Pujols got less than a million each of his first three years, and then he signed a team friendly seven-year contract that turned into eight years when the Cardinals happily picked up his option for the baseball bargain price of $16 million this year. See, Pujols has already shown great loyalty to St. Louis.

Anyway, the reasons are not relevant. By baseball standards, Albert Pujols has been ludicrously underpaid. It feels absurd to say that someone can get SIXTEEN MILLION DOLLARS a year and be ludicrously underpaid, but we can't let ourselves get lost in the numbers. We are not talking about real money. We are talking baseball money.

Players who will get paid more than Albert Pujols in 2011*
1. Alex Rodriguez
2. Cliff Lee*
3. Joe Mauer
3. C.C. Sabathia
4. Johan Santana
5. Mark Teixeira
7. Carl Crawford*
8. Roy Halladay
9. Miggy Cabrera
10. Derek Jeter*
11. Ryan Howard
12. Torii Hunter
13. Ichiro Suzuki
14. Vernon Wells
15. Barry Zito
16. Jake Peavy*
17. Matt Holliday
18. Carlos Beltran
19. Alfonso Soriano
20. A.J. Burnett
21. John Lackey*
22. Jayson Werth
23. Carlos Lee
24. Jason Bay

*And by getting "paid more" I mean they have signed contracts that pay them more than $16 million per year. Technically Cliff Lee will get paid less this year, but only because his 5-year, $120 million deal is backloaded. Same with Carl Crawford's 7-year, $142 million. Derek Jeter's is backloaded with an $8 million player option. Peavy will get paid at the end. John Lackey got much of his money up front.

Players who deserve to get paid more than Albert Pujols in 2011:
1. (Crickets sounding)

So you cannot blame Pujols for believing that the Cardinals have gotten one heck of a deal for 11 years. Maybe you don't buy Fangraphs $200 million difference in value, but certainly the difference is $100 million. And you cannot blame Pujols and his agents for thinking that to come back to the Cardinals they ought to give him market value PLUS pay the minimum $100 million for services rendered. When you look at it that way, a 10-year, $300 million deal doesn't sound quite as crazy.

So you say: "No, it doesn't work that way. He got paid plenty by the Cardinals." But it doesn't matter what you or I say. It only matters how Pujols and his people feel. If the Cardinals want to sign Pujols, they have to deal with this sort of math. To Albert, I do believe, money equals respect. And that's where the difference comes between Pujols-Cardinals and Jeter-Yankees. Because, at the end of the day, Jeter had no other viable options. No other team was going to offer him even half of what he wanted. But Pujols ... yeah, there will be plenty of action on free agent Albert Pujols. Maybe nobody will offer a soon to be 32-year-old man the 10-year deal he wants ... but never bet against the uncontrolled impulses of rich men searching for a place to spend their money. Someone paid $151.8 million for this Jackson Pollock painting:


So don't tell me that no one will pay $300 million for perhaps the greatest hitter who ever lived.

Yes, this is different from Jeter's deal. Pujols, I believe, wants to break the bank, wants to be paid more than any player in the history of the game. And if he pushes hard enough, if he sparks the interest of the right teams (the Cubs?)* he just might get there.

*A friend of mine, Jeff Gordon at the Post Dispatch, wrote something kind of silly last week. He wrote that the Kansas City Royals might be the best place for Pujols after St. Louis. This is largely because Pujols went to high school in Kansas City, still has connections the city, the Royals have a lot of free payroll and a desperate need to make a splash ... all sensible enough thoughts, I suppose. He tended, however, to overlook one rather key point: Jeff, have you lost your mind? The Royals don't have one of the lowest payrolls in baseball by mistake. The Royals have a low payroll because they have low revenue, and they have a not-lavishly rich owner who carefully watches the bottom line (the man ran Wal-Mart, for crying out loud), and they are attempting to build through their loaded farm system and the jewel of that farm system is a first baseman named Eric Hosmer. David Glass told my friend Bob Dutton: "There's little justification in giving anybody a $300 million contract. You might as well give them the franchise."

Sign Pujols? Glass paid $96 million to buy the Royals in 2000. It was more than he wanted to pay.


So, there is a real possibility -- not a trumped up possibility but a real one -- that Pujols will leave St. Louis even though it's in just about everybody's best interest for him to stay. It's certainly in the Cardinals best interest. It's in baseball's best interest to have Pujols as the centerpiece of one of its proudest franchises. It's in Pujols best interest to play his last years in a place that loves him and will forgive his inevitable decline (rather than get booed somewhere for the $30 million he no longer deserves).

Today, Stan Musial receives the Presidential Medal of Freedom. I'm proud of the tiny role I played in making that happen. Musial was one of the greatest players in baseball history, and he was one of the great role models of American sports history. And he came to represent his city of St. Louis. There have been many famous people to come from St. Louis, from all walks of life, but there is something about sports that captures our imagination, and so for a half century when people thought of St. Louis, they thought of the Arch, and they thought of Stan the Man Musial.

Albert Pujols can be that man for the next half century. Again, I don't know his mind, but I do think he would like that, I do think he would like to represent something larger than baseball, would like to represent community and connection and stability and faith and all those things. I do think, all things being even close to equal, he would like to play his whole career for the St. Louis Cardinals. I hope he does. I think a lot of us hope he does.

But the ending isn't written yet. Pujols has options. There are a lot of rich owners out there.

39 comments:

  1. Baseball-Reference has Scutaro making $5 million in 2011, not $6 million. I find both numbers absurd and wonder how much the Mets are going to have to put down if they want to re-sign Jose Reyes.

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  2. Welcome to the small market, St. Louis. Sign him and hamstring your chances to win the next few years (or be willing to lose money on a yearly basis in an effort to win). Don't sign him and be pilloried by the press and your fans forever.

    Lovely choice. One that faces the Pirates, the Royals, the Reds, etc. all the time.

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  3. Depressing to see that the Mets have three of the 24 highest paid players and are still widely considered to be at risk of finishing last in their division.

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  4. @ brhalbleib

    Oh, please. The Cardinals could pay Pujols $30 million and still have enough to pay for the entire roster of the Rays or Reds or Rockies. If the Cardinals don't sign Pujols, it's because they're nickel-and-diming him. Period.

    You can't sign Matt Holliday to a seven-year deal and then claim poverty when it comes time to sign the best player in the game.

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  5. No matter how tiny your role was, Joe, if you had anything at all to do with Stan the Man getting the Presidential Medal of Freedom, you should indeed be very proud of yourself -- and even more so considering that he will be alive to receive it.

    To the extent that the concept of "should" has any meaning in sports, yes, Albert Pujols should play his entire career in St. Louis. But "should" probably means a whole lot less than the number of years and zeroes on the contract, so I honestly am not that hopeful that Pujols will stay in StL.

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  6. I think paying a guy after the age of 35 the kind of money discussed here is asking for trouble.

    Regarding the amount a guy is worth: he is worth what somebody is willing to pay. Also, just because other guys are overpaid relative to performance doesn't necessarily man Pujols deserves more.

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  7. I read somewhere a long time ago that the most satisfied people on earth are those couples that have celebrated their 50th wedding anniversary. I don't remember where I read it, or the content of the article really. But they had the fewest regrets, they were the happiest, they were the most proud of how they conducted their lives, and so on and so forth.

    My guess is that guys who've spent all of their MLB careers with one team feel a similar pride and satisfaction.

    But of course pride and satisfaction don't pay the bills.

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  8. STL really can't win here.
    if they hadn't signed Holliday, they'd have been ripped for not giving Pujols any help.

    the money and years Pujols is (allegedly) asking for are nuts, as great as he is.

    no way they can have a winning team if they give it to him.

    maybe THAT's how they should pose it to him: do you want to make the most $$, or do you want to win?
    cause you can't do both.
    not here anyway.

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  9. Not to nit pick, but to nit pick....
    I can't agree that he is making a case as the greatest hitter in the history of the game. The stats in the article say otherwise. Ted Williams is the greatest hitter there ever was (so far)...and that is even ignoring the performance enhancing rumors for someone as big and built as Albert.....Ted is still the king....

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  10. Didn't Pujols sign his last contract of his own free will? Or was he forced to do so at gunpoint?


    Couldn't he have already have become a free agent once, if he wanted, and chose not to do so? Of his own free will?


    Seems to me he's where he is because he wanted to be. How is that the Cardinals fault?

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  11. The problem is Pujols want to be paid for the past, and the Cardinals, smartly, want to pay for future production.

    So I can see why there would be a gap in negotiations, even if you factor in Pujols being worth me to Stl than other places.

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  12. wow, talk about typos

    wants*


    worth more*

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  13. "But of course pride and satisfaction don't pay the bills. "

    Something tells me he can have both pride and the ability to pay his bills if he re-signs with the Cards.

    And yes I know the larger point you're making, and I'm being a bit sarcastic. But, Pujols is already a very rich man and will be paid handsomely no matter what he does. As a baseball fan, I hope he works it out with the Cards.

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  14. Joe - Love the articles, and I usually agree with a lot of what you write, but not this time. How can you say Pujols staying in St. Louis is best for him? First, who are any of us to say what is best for him? Maybe it's St. Louis, maybe it's Chicago, maybe it's Los Angeles. Who knows, except for Mr. Pujols and his family? Second, wouldn't a city that pays him AND appreciates and loves him be best for him, if that is where he wants to play? I've never played for the Cubs, but lots of players have loved playing at Wrigley.

    I suspect that we, as sports fans, and you, as a sportswriter (as well as a fan), all want him to stay in St. Louis, becuase that is the storybook ending. But many of us have left jobs for more money, as you stated. And many people are happier after the move. Not all, of course, but I'm sure a significant portion of us.

    It seems like a guy who wants to do away with wins and ERA and batting average should be willing to also do away with simple romanticism as the best way to make a decision for someone else.

    I am not saying Mr. Pujols should stay in St. Louis or go somewhere else. What I am saying is that I think we are entirely unqualified to suggest where he "should" go or what team would be best for him.

    Thanks for all the great writing.

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  15. If the Cardinals re-allocated $30,000,000 per year that Pujols wants to get two $15,000,000 per year players do you think they would be better off (especially when you consider the back end of the deal)?

    Another way to look at - Is Pujols projected WAR better than the projected WAR of two $15MM per year position players?

    Any thoughts?

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  16. Actually Pujols to Kansas City isn't completely ludicrous, but I agree that a 10-year $300mil contract wouldn't work.
    What could work is a 5-year $200mil contract. Sure it doesn't have the length that Pujols wanted, but the respect of being not just the highest paid player in the game, but making $15mil more per year than the next guy? Yeah thats impressive.
    Even crazier, it fits in the Royals payroll, with Pujols, it would bring next years payroll to the ~65-70mil range, less than it has been the last two years, and the contract would be ending right as most of the Royals big prospects are entering their final year of arbitration, freeing up a huge chunk of money to resign guys.

    Of course that little pipe dream would require Hosmer to move to RF, Kila to be traded, and butler to be full time DH.
    Besides, its not gonna happen anyways, but its fun to imagine.

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  17. Somehow this post seems to imply that it's Pujols's fault if no agreement is reached. Pujols does have options, yes, but the Cardinals have options too. One of them is to pay the best player in franchise history what he wants after getting ten years of him at way below market value.

    Why is it often on the player to sacrifice in order to play his whole career in one place? One BR comments on the pride and satisfaction Pujols might feel by staying in STL. Wouldn't Bill DeWitt also feel pride and satisfaction in keeping one of the best players ever in Cardinal red even if it means overpaying for him?

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  18. St Louis should give Albert a blank contract and let him decide the numbers.

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  19. His agent should use every bit of leverage he has, since the Cardinals did when they had him under control. LaRussa spewing BS about the union's involvement doesn't help matters. Pujols could always end up back in St.L even if he signs someplace else and have a good career story.

    The Eagles are like circus peanuts candy, they look like they should be fun, but they have a disturbing texture, poor taste, and are bad for you.

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  20. In the Wall Street Journal last year, Fay Vincent suggested that Albert Pujols be given a lower salary and a stake in Cardinals ownership. It seems to make sense, because as Vincent pointed out, all sorts of highly paid executives get ownership stakes as part of their compensation packages, and capital gains tax rates are much lower than income tax rates for guys making $30 mil a year.
    But, the Cardinals have an estimated worth (as of Apr 2010) of about $488 million (according to Forbes). How much stake in ownership could be given? A whopping 10% would give Pujols only $48 mil right now. I know the idea is that it will grow in value over time, but it doesn't seem feasible for a fairly low value organization such as an MLB franchise. Does anyone know where I'm wrong in this logic?

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  21. @Mark Daniel --

    Your logic is fine.

    The problem is that current MLB rules (which, of course, may or may not have anything to do with logic) do not allow players (or any active personnel, I think) to be owners, and vice versa. This came up earlier in the context of the St. Derek negotiations.

    IIRC, it was the same rule, or a version of it, that was used to keep Ted Turner from managing the Braves for more than one game back in the '80s.

    P.S. And, before the nitpickers come out, yes, this rule came after Connie Mack no longer owned the A's.

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  22. That Jackson Pollock painting reminds me of his quote that "the canvas is an arena in which to act."

    It also reminds me of the dump I just took.

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  23. When I was young my dad took me to a fair where I globbed different colors of paint on something and they put on a spinner and let centrifugal force do it's work. I had it on my desk growing up and it looked alot like that Pollock painting.

    For Pujols I say 5 years $140 million.

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  24. So let me ask a couple questions:

    Am I the only one who thinks Pujols and the "juice" have met?

    Does anyone but me remember that Tony LaRussa has managed some other famous hitters that turned out not to be quite real?

    31-34 years old seems to be about the age the 'roiders break down and look old quickly.

    Let's wait and see before we anoint Pujols for anything. In MLB...if it looks too good to be true...likely it isn't true.

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  25. @Baseball Idiot: Kind of reminds me of Scottie Pippin. He wasn't very business savvy and got taken advantage of something fierce by the Bulls during his prime. He didn't make nearly what he should have when the Bulls were winning those titles.

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  26. My thoughts are that he should ask for and take ownership of the Cards. What greater legacy than to be an owner in the next half century? 10 years at 225 million and a 15% stake in the team, with an option to buy more @ that rate. All rowing in same direction. That the rules prohibit is the ultimate chattel law.
    Power to the workers. Why not? Why shouldn't 9 all stars own a team and play for sweat equity?

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  27. Ross, do you have any evidence for this? Besides Pujols' great numbers and insinuations about his manager? If not, you are attempting to smear a man's name in a manner akin to libel.

    Furthermore, even if Pujols *did* juice, why do you care?

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  28. @ Inc. Kulk: At least Pippin won multiple titles. Your analogy is okay I guess except Pujols doesn't have Willie Mays in his lineup.

    Personally, while I know that St Louis is the supposed end all when it comes to well-educated, well-behaved loyal baseball fans, I'd take playing at Wrigley 81 games per year in a heartbeat. Day games are simply the best, it's usually about 5-10 degrees cooler in Chitown than StL during a mid-summer heatwave and there is no better true old ballyard than Wrigley. I am not a Cubs fan nor have I ever lived in Chicago or anywhere near it for any length of time but that's been my sense of things for a long while.

    So Mr. Pujols, stay in St Louis if that's your pleasure, perhaps a move to another club and city is not of your liking. Frankly, I'd be ready to move on just to see a lot less of Tony LaRussa.

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  29. Pujols is definitely undersold, this is the first column I've read by a good writer on him in about a year of searching. Also I'd like to see a shorter deal with a much higher AAV (35+ million, 5 years)

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  30. Of the 3 choices John Mozeliak has (extension, trade, let walk), the one that would make the most sense for the prospective health/competitiveness of the Cardinals' franchise is to trade Pujols (also happens to be the most courageous decision that Mozeliak could make).

    Any way you slice it, the Cardinals have one of the weakest farm systems, and Albert Pujols would fetch an enormous haul of young talent in a trade, even in the current era where clubs are typically hoarding elite prospects by not including them in trades for top veteran talent (see the recent Roy Oswalt, Cliff Lee, Adrian Gonzalez trades as evidence of such hoarding). Think of this option as a quick-fix for several years of poor amateur scouting and drafting (and/or inadequate resources directed to amateur scouting and drafting).

    Letting him walk as a free agent and getting a 2012 sandwich pick and either the 1st- or 2nd-round draft pick slot (to be determined based on base dupon where the signing club finished won-loss wise) from the future employer of Pujols should only come into play if the Cards are a strong NL title contender circa July 31. Needless to say, the draft picks secured offer nowhere near the equivalent of Pujols' value.

    And as for the sentiment that the Cardinals have to extend Pujols, I just don't buy it. I sincerely doubt that Cardinals' fans would revolt and stop attending games if Pujols isn't wearing a Cardinals uni come August 2011 or next March 2012. In the last 29 years, the Cards have ranked 4th or better among NL teams attendance-wise 25 times (winning 53% of their games and making the playoffs 11 times in those 29 seasons). Mozeliak would undoubtedly experience some backlash, and perhaps even have to fall on the proverbial sword to deflect blame away from his superiors, but ultimately the fans of the Cardinals would still come, because that's what they do.

    So, in a strange way, a rational-thinking fan of the 2011 Cardinals might ought to be wishing that their team gets off to a mediocre or worse start, Pujols remains healthy and mashes at a level that even Pujols has yet to mash before, and a spectacular July bidding war erupts for Pujols' services among other playoff contenders with deep to semi-deep farm systems (a la the Braves, Yankees, Phillies, and Rangers). But then again, as we know, fans tend to think emotionally rather than rationally about these matters.

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  31. Ross-It irks me when people throw the steroid dart at those who have never tested positive and, in some cases, even offered to be tested when they were not banned. We cannot assume that every muscular guy used steroids. Lou Gehrig was ripped (especially for his time), but if he played today someone would say he was juicing.

    I saw Pujols play a game for a community college over a decade ago, and he hit the hardest line drive I have ever seen hit in person. The SHORTSTOP had to duck out of the way because he could not get his glove up in time and it would have taken off his head.

    Yes, Tony Larussa looked the other way on steroids in Oakland, and with Mcgwire in STL, but I have never heard anyone suggest he was dealing them.

    Also this thing about steroid users breaking down in their early 30's is a complete fallacy. Mcgwire had an OPS of 1.058 after 35 with with 126 home runs in 3 years. Bond's OPS was 1.241 with 317 homers post 35, Palmeiro's was .892 (higher than his career mark) with 208 homers, Clemens won 141 games and 3 Cy Youngs after 35, and Sammy Sosa had a downgrade when he stopped using, but he was basically the same hitter he was pre strike- and pre steroids. Hell, even Caminiti had a much higher OPS and more homers per at bat after 35, and he was doing not only steroids, but any drug he could get his hands on.

    So because Canseco petered out early, (and He really did not for the type of hitter he was,-6 of his 10 closest comparable players at age 34, according to baseball reference, were less productive than Jose after 35) we are somehow led to believe that steroid use causes players to break down early.

    This myth probably kept Jeff Bagwell, who has never been linked to steroids in any fashion, out of the HOF. The whispers that he "broke down" allegedly like other steroid users. He in fact, had an arthritic shoulder and could barely throw since about 2002. (Though even Bagwell had a 120 OPS+ and hit only 3 less homers per 162 games after 35.) If he had wanted to, he probably could have rehabbed it enough to move to the AL and have a Thome like swan song as a DH, but he chose to retire an Astro with (he thought) his reputation intact.

    Cynical people like you, Ross, who snipe at anyone with talent make me sad.

    Saying that every good or strong hitter is juicing because you know that some were is not much different than me calling you a thief-because the only two Rosses Ive known were both thieves. (And Ross on "Friends" used to steal stuff from hotel rooms.)

    Ridiculous!

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  32. P.S.- Pujols could have a subpar year this year and retire because he could not get his money and still be a hall of famer- we are well past the anointing stage.

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  33. For a medium to small market, StL does an amazing job of supporting their team. In 1990 they finished last (first time in forever) and still drew over 2.5 million people. The Cardinals will always draw well; going to ballgames is almost a cultural requirement.

    Albert cannot be traded w/o his consent, which I don't see happening, so Mo's options are re-sign or let him walk. And for someone who wants to win as much as Albert does, I can't see him ever signing w/the Cubs.

    Joe, thanks for anything you did for Musial. It's stunning how below the radar he is (by his choice, I know).
    Dark Side of the Mood

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  34. The "would you trade Ryan Howard for Pujols" conversation came up on sports talk radio again this morning. And I continue to be amazed at how many people wouldn't make the trade -- even if you guaranteed that Pujols signed an extension as part of the deal.

    -- John in Philly

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  35. @tgreaves: Part of the problem with reassigning that money to two $15 million players is that Pujols only takes up one roster spot. If his performance is equal to that of those two guys (say they're a first baseman and a center fielder), it would be in the Cards' best interests to play Pujols at first and bring up a minor league guy to play center (or in their case, have Jim Edmonds play there until he breaks.) Same cost, and there's the potential for more production.

    It's similar to the arguments made against the Royals' end of the Greinke trade. Even if Cain and Escobar combine to equal Greinke's production (assuming Yuni contributes nothing to the Brewers, which given that it's Yuni is a fair assumption), then the Brewers still come out ahead, because Greinke only takes up one space on the roster while Escobar and Cain use two.

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  36. @ David in NYC - "The problem is that current MLB rules (which, of course, may or may not have anything to do with logic) do not allow players (or any active personnel, I think) to be owners, and vice versa."

    IIRC, the rule prohibits players from owing an interest in teams other than the one they play for. So a contract could conceivably be worked out that would allow him to take a share of the STL franchise. (And presumably require him to divest if he was traded etc.)

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  37. Regarding the idea of Pujols getting a sliver of ownership of the franchise: turns out Craig Calcaterra did a bit on this nearly a year ago:

    http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/03/22/why-players-cant-own-a-piece-of-the-team/

    Conflict of interest is the main takeaway. Although, setting up a 'stock option' that vests at retirement, or maybe a year a day after retirement, might not be impossible.

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  38. @Dan Shea --

    It is specifically prohibited in the Major League Uniform Player's Contract. Section 4.(c) states:

    "4.(c) The Player represents that he does not, directly or indirectly, own stock or have any financial interest in the ownership or earnings of any Major League Club, except as hereinafter expressly set forth, and covenants that he will not hereafter, while connected with any Major League Club, acquire or hold any such stock or interest except in accordance with Major League Rule 20(e)."

    http://nbchardballtalk.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/cba_english.pdf

    Some history (basically, tried with Rogers Hornsby and didn't work back in the '20s) here:

    http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=10316

    The complications are many and varied, and quite serious. Ain't gonna happen.

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  39. As a bitter Cubs fan, I desperately do want to see Pujols out of St. Louis. It doesn't need to be Chicago, but get him out of my division. It's been a freaking nightmare dealing with him the past decade.

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