"And then I was looking at the little Chinese lady. There was a beauty to her -- she was just a tiny little Chinese lady, I was staring at her because I was fascinated by her. I don't know anybody like her, and I am SO not a little old Chinese lady.
"Then I look and I think, 'What are her thoughts?' That's what I was burning inside with. 'What is she thinking right now?' I can never know. And my dumb brain is telling me she's just thinking: 'Ching chung cheeng, chung cheeng chaing.' That's how dumb I am, that I think Chinese jibberish that I made up is in her actually Chinese mind."
-- Louis CK
I have several mostly done baseball stat posts -- a couple of them completely done -- but I haven't posted them yet. There's a reason for this. I do think that in the next couple of days, I will put up a a pitcher rating system that I've developed with the help and inspiration of Tom Tango and Bill James. I will also post my 32 best players in baseball.
But the reason that I haven't posted any of them quite yet, I think, is because it just feels to me like there's this point I can't quite articulate about the stat vs. gut argument in baseball. I keep feeling like I'm circling the runway. I've tried to write a post about why some sportswriters seem to feel unease -- if not outright contempt -- toward the advanced stats. I've tried to write a post about why some baseball managers and very smart baseball people say things that can be so easily proven false by just the quickest glance at the numbers. But, like I say, it still feels like I'm running in circles.
Saturday, doing my usual Baseball Think Factory reading, I came across Dan Steinberg and his blog about a couple of Washington Nationals radio ads, narrated by manager Jim Riggleman. The first ad is a celebration of old-time baseball ("Smart ball," in Riggleman's description). The second is a mild repudiation of stats against the power of humanity, not to mention a radio gala commemorating the competitive spirit of Ian Desmond.
Here's what Riggleman says in the first commercial:
"How many ball games are won by one run? Last season: 732. A walk, a bunt, a well-placed single and a sacrifice fly. You call it small ball; I call it smart ball."
And here's what he says in the second:
"In baseball there’s a stat for every situation. Tie game, man on second, Ian Desmond at-bat. In day games, he’s batting .219. That’s what the stats say. Do you pinch hit for him? Absolutely not. Sometimes, you believe in the stats. Sometimes, you believe in the players."
These commercials, for whatever reason, kind of clarified something for me that has been foggy in my mind: Baseball people really don't get at all what people like Bill James and Tom Tango and Pete Palmer and the like are doing at all. They might THINK they know. But in the end, they are just assuming that the Chinese jibberish that they make up is what is actually happening in the minds of the most brilliant sabermetric minds.
I actually don't think the Riggleman stuff here is all that bothersome. I like Riggleman. And he likes small ball. And he likes to stick with his players (a noble quality, I think). And he likes to go with his gut sometimes as a manager. That's fine. I mean, no, it's not really "fine" in that that I wouldn't want him to be the manager of my team, but that's because I have a particularly strong distaste for small ball ("smart ball") and overconfidence in gut instincts. The second commercial is particularly silly along those lines ... it is touching that the manager would stick with Ian Desmond in that situation because of his faith in the heart, but it should be noted that Riggleman has twice led the league in pinch-hitters used so he apparently buys into day batting averages more than most.
But it's that .219 day-game average that stands out in the commercials -- no self-respecting sabermetric thinker would ever quote a .219 day batting average. This is exactly the sort of thing people MAKE UP when talking about sabermetric thinker. This is Chinese Jibberish. You will hear people, in their mocking voice, say stuff like: "Oh, what does he hit on Thursdays after full moons during Republican administrations?" This is their terrible impressions of stat people.
Only ... one of the fundamental principles of sabermetrics is the principle of sample size. If anything, smart people like Tom Tango have a MUCH LARGER sample size requirement than the average person. They believe that there is ALMOST NOTHING to be learned from a few at-bats during the day time, that Ian Desmond's .219 batting average in 197 plate appearances during the day tells you ALMOST NOTHING.
This is one of the real ironies of stat vs. gut -- the gut people often make fun of stats and yet they are the ones most likely to rely on the least telling of them, the ones with small sample sizes (day batting averages, 10-at bat matchups with pitchers, batting average with runners in scoring position) that they probably don't mean a thing. This is not some side-thing either with sabermetrics; this is one of the founding and fundamental beliefs. BEWARE SMALL SAMPLE SIZE.*
*Advice I wish my beloved SI would have taken before putting Jeff Francoeur on the cover with "The Natural" label.
Take Tango's invention "FIP." FIP means "Fielding Independent Pitching" and it's an effort to measure a pitcher's performance based specifically on things he is responsible for -- these would include strikeouts, walks and home runs.
FIP has taken a beating in the gut-based community because it doesn't FEEL right. It reduces pitching to its skeleton shape, and we have come to know pitching as something much larger than a skeleton, something beyond just strikeouts and walks and home runs, something ethereal, something artistic, something grand. Reducing pitching to strikeouts, walks and home runs feels, in a way, like Dr. J. Evans Pritchard's attempts to reduce poetry to a chart in "Dead Poet's Society." This is the sort of thing that baseball people despite. This is the sort of thing that suggests to them that stat people are trying to take the humanity and poetry out of baseball.
Two problems with that sort of thinking. One, the FIP concept is right: Pitching IS largely strikeouts and walks and home runs. People seem unable to believe it -- I'm often unable to believe it -- but starting pitchers have very little control of anything else. There's a very simple statistic people call BABIP -- Batting Average on Balls In Play -- and it gives you exactly what it promises, the batting average of a hitter on balls hit into the field of play.
Here are a few pitchers with their career BABIP. See if anything surprises you:
-- Mario Soto, .255
-- Eric Show, .267
-- Jim Deshaies, .271
-- Nolan Ryan, .271
-- Scott Elarton, .277
-- Johan Santana, .278
-- Bob Forsch, .278
-- Dan Quisenberry, .280
-- Pedro Martinez, .282
-- Bob Walk, .282
-- Eric Milton, .285
-- Neal Heaton, .285
-- Roger Clemens, .286
-- Greg Maddux, .286
-- Brandon Webb, .291
-- Kevin Brown, .293
-- Roy Halladay, .294
-- Roy Oswalt, .300
Yep, Jim Deshaies gave up fewer hits on balls in play than Nolan Ryan. Bob Walk had a lower BABIP allowed than Roger Clemens. Hit a ball against Dan Quisenberry's slow sinker and you had less of a chance for a hit than managing to hit Pedro Martinez's electric stuff.
And those are CAREER numbers, which means we have bigger sample sizes. If you talk about individual seasons, well, forget about it. The season numbers are stunning and illogical and prove the point that success after hitting a ball in play is largely due to chance and the alignment and skill of the defense. Who was the best pitcher in baseball last year? Probably Roy Halladay. Is this because Halladay broke a lot of bats and forced a lot of easy ground balls and constantly coaxed hitters to put the ball right where the fielders were standing? Nope. Halladay's BABIP last year was FIFTY SECOND in the National League, behind, among others, Rodrigo Lopez and Brad Bergesen.
Josh Johnson, who led the National League in ERA, had an even higher BABIP -- he allowed batters to hit .301 on balls in play.
The numbers point to the simple conclusion: Pitchers don't have much control over balls in play. It seems impossible to look at the numbers and not draw that conclusion. Even a reliever you would assume does control balls in play, Mariano Rivera, really doesn't. In his 12 best seasons, the BABIP against him has ranged from .212 to .296. And, believe it or not, the .296 year might have been better than the .212 year.
2003: BABIP .296. 40 saves, 1.66 ERA.
1999: BABIP .212. 45 saves, 1.83 ERA.
Pitchers -- especially starting pitchers -- have so much less control than we want to believe. This is true in large and small senses. People used to say, with all seriousness, that pitching (meaning starting pitching) is 90% of baseball. Bill James detonated that cliche in one of his funnier essays, but the fact it became a cliche -- and the fact that every now and again you will still hear it -- tells you its power.
Starting pitching in 2010 is about 25% of baseball. It's easy to figure that percentage.
Step 1: Figure that run scoring and run prevention are each 50% of the game.
Step 2: Bill James figure that pitching is about 75% of run prevention with defense the other 25%. You can adjust this if you want, but it won't change the overall number much. Anyway that seems about right.
Step 3: Starting pitchers averaged six innings per start in 2010. You have to go back almost 25 years, to 1988, to find a year when starting pitchers averaged even 6 1/3 innings per start.
Do the math ((.50*.75) *.66) and it means that starting pitching as a whole is about 25% of the game.
I hope that people start using that as the cliche, but they won't. We want to infuse pitchers with bigger roles and larger purpose. That's why we assign to them wins and losses. That's why there seems a visceral reaction to stats like FIP.
I said above that there are two problems with the sort of anti-stat emotion out there -- one is that many people don't seem to realize how logical and well thought out these baseball stats are. They tend to create Chinese jibberish and believe that's what the stats are really saying.
The second problem is that this stuff isn't really foreign to baseball people. Tom Tango wasn't the first guy to attempt to separate the contribution of a pitcher and his defense. No, that attempt goes back more than 100 years.
Introducing the statistic: ERA.
Think about ERA for a moment. Why was it invented? We were already counting runs allowed for pitchers, that was easy. But Henry Chadwick -- back when the game was very different -- did not want to blame the pitcher for runs that were clearly the fault of the defense (and defense was much more than 25% of run prevention then). Yep, he wanted to give pitchers credit (or blame) for what they did, and defenses credit (or blame) for what they did. This led to the invention of the error and, if you think about it, the ludicrous way that we actually go back and try to reinvent history ("if he makes that play, then the runner doesn't go to second, and the next guy doesn't hit the single that drives him in") and parse runs into earned and unearned categories.
How silly is this? Well, what if I tell you that at the same time the error was invented there was also an attempt to label something called the "Good play." Here's how the "good play" would have worked: Someone in the press box would have determined whether or not a defensive player made a good play -- that would be a play made that was above and beyond ordinary effort. And if a good play saved a run, that run would be charged to pitcher as an "unscored run." Yes, we would charge pitchers for runs that did not score.
The previous paragraph, as far as I know, is complete fiction ... I just made it up. I don't think there ever was any effort to popularize the good play. But the good play is just the opposite of the error. It's another bizarrely simplistic and subjective attempt to separate pitching from hitting. We've been living under the quirky nature of ERA all of our lives, and few complain about it despite its obvious biasses and general mindlessness. We credit pitchers for every run they saved except ones when a fielder makes a mistake so obvious that someone can notice it from the press box? That's how we do it? Really?
Really. And yet, when someone like Voros McCracken discovers through the numbers that pitchers don't control much beyond strikeouts, walks and homers ... when Tom Tango invents a stat that gives us a much clearer view of pitchers ... when Bill James invents something called "the strikeout-walk win-loss record" and really shows us that you can judge pitchers fairly and quite accurately based only on those two stats ... many people tend to shudder and bellyache about these stat people who care only about how left-handed pitchers do on grass fields recently mowed four days after national holidays against right-handed batters with three syllables in their names and ...
Yep. Chinese jibberish.
Back to Riggleman for a moment. In the first commercial he talks about the importance of those manufactured runs in a one-run game. But even in the commercial, even on his own terms, he gets it wrong. He says: "A walk, a bunt, a well-placed single and a sacrifice fly. You call it small ball; I call it smart ball."
First off, if you give up an out to bunt the runner over to second, you would hope -- HOPE -- he would score on the well-placed single. It's like Riggleman doesn't even get his own manufactured run scenario right.
Second, if you have runners on first and third with one out and only get one run -- as the sacrifice fly suggests -- you are actually doing worse than league average. Teams tend to score about 1.2 runs in those situations. You are not GAINING runs in smart ball, you are losing them.
Third, they have been playing baseball for more than 100 years. And for more than 100 years, more runs have scored with a man on first and nobody out than with a man on second and one out. This has been true EVERY SINGLE SEASON for more than 100 years. Every single one.
Not only that, but since expansion in 1969, your chance of scoring a single run is better with a runner on first and nobody out than with a runner on second and one out. Get that? Your percentages for scoring ONE RUN is better.
Now, a manager may believe that these so-called numbers are wrong, that hundreds of thousands of innings and at-bats and situations are wrong, that what is right is the manager's own instinct for avoiding the double play and putting his RBI guy up in the right situation. I don't begrudge a manager for thinking that or a team for believing in that manager or fans for wanting it to be true. I just wouldn't call it smart ball.
Circle me not Murray Chass.
ReplyDeleteI think maybe managers and GM's have to say these things when they don't have big home run hitters, or big strikeout pitchers. They've got to sell their fans on what they *think* they can do well, what they *think* fans would like to see. Riggleman may not even believe what he's saying in the ad--I bet he would LOVE to have Albert Pujols and Felix Hernandez. But the Nationals--while improving--still need to get fans in the seats somehow.
ReplyDeletecan you explain the Bill James strikeout-walk-win-loss record?
ReplyDelete""How many ball games are won by one run? Last season: 732. A walk, a bunt, a well-placed single and a sacrifice fly. You call it small ball; I call it smart ball.""
ReplyDeleteOK, but how many of those one-run games were decided by a home run or a double with a man on first?
Seems to me that the whole "pitching is 90% of the game" thing comes from trying to compare the impact of a starting pitcher to a starting hitter for one game.
ReplyDeleteIf starting pitching is 25% of the game then one rotation slot is 5%. If offense is 50% of the game then a position player who plays every inning of every game is worth 5.5% of his team's output (his offense is, anyway).
But a pitcher concentrates his 5% in 32 games meaning that in every game the starting pitcher is putting out .15% of his teams output. Meanwhile a batter spreading out his 5.5% over 162 games would be responsible for about .03% of his team's seasonal output per game.
Now this is a gross oversimplification and a completely retarded way of looking at things and I sure as hell don't think they went through the math but it's probably how their digestive systems think.
What's true for most players in most situations is not true for all players in all situations. Take for example a real grind-it-out guy like Willie Bloomquist. If he's on first, you definitely want to bunt him over because he will find a way to score.
ReplyDeleteI have been a baseball fan since I went to my first game, opening day at Shea in 1982, a month before my 8th birthday. It was maybe a little late to go to my first game but it was hard for my Dad to bring himself to go to Shea after the Mets traded Seaver. I've been to hundreds of games since, the vast majority with my Dad. We've hit nearly every opening day since then, missing only 1987 when I couldn't skip tryouts for the junior high team (little did I know it would be the Mets' only ring ceremony in my lifetime) and a few when I was away @ college.
ReplyDelete10ish years ago or so I discovered Rob Neyer on ESPN and that became my gateway into sabermetrics. Over the last 5 years or so I've tried to explain to my Dad about BABIP and that Derek Jeter's not a good defensive SS (though a Mets fan my father does buy into the Jeter-worship of the local press).
I just emailed him the link to this post in the hopes that it will drive him for him what I have been trying to tell him (and what he has been resistant to).
First: Thank you, Joe.
ReplyDeleteI live in the DC-area and have heard the Riggleman commercial several times on sports talk radio. Each time I hear it I get a little more annoyed. Every time I hear it from now on, I'll just think about your column, Louis CK, and Chinese jibberish. And I will smile.
Again, thank you, Joe.
Regarding a pitcher's ability to control how the ball is put in play, shouldn't we also look at slugging on balls in play? It's conceivable that a pitcher could have some effect on a batter's ability to hit doubles.
ReplyDeleteI just love this post Joe. That's what I don't get about the non-stats crowd. Sabermetrics doesn't have an agenda, its just telling you what has happened. We aren't trying to steal something from people.
ReplyDeleteMildy racist beginning there Joe. Doesn't matter if it's from some dumb comic or not, it's not really required.
ReplyDelete"What's true for most players in most situations is not true for all players in all situations. Take for example a real grind-it-out guy like Willie Bloomquist. If he's on first, you definitely want to bunt him over because he will find a way to score."
ReplyDeleteIf Bloomquist can find a way to score no matter what the batters do, why do you need to bunt him over?
Kind of like that whole Rush Limbaugh controversy.
ReplyDelete""Hu Jintao -- He was speaking and they weren't translating. They normally translate every couple of words. Hu Jintao was just going ching chong, ching chong cha," Limbaugh said, before launching into a 17-second imitation of the Chinese leader's dialect."
LoCoDe: It's not like Limbaugh at all, actually. Louis CK is ridiculing his own, unwilling racist thoughts, exposing them for analysis and reflection. The laugh, in other words, is at CK's expense. Limbaugh is simply asking us to laugh at Chinese people; there's no self-reflection or analysis at all.
ReplyDeleteOpinions can differ about what's racist, offensive, etc., but I don't think there can be any doubt that there's a difference in kind between these two routines.
Cognitive Inertia.
ReplyDeletePeople don't like changing what they believe.
I'm with tomemos: there's no racism whatsoever in that routine. The bit, even as it exists out of context (for example, perhaps you don't know who Louis CK is), contains no racism. He says, after saying the only racial thing in there, "That's how dumb I am". LoCoDe, please explain WHAT you find racist about it, rather than just saying it's racist and then chastising Joe. I find comments like yours far more offensive than Louis CK's bit.
ReplyDeleteI should add that I'm not trying to start a fight or anything, and if I sound harsh I apologize. It's just that I find it very annoying when people hear anything at all relating to a discussion on race and then immediately label it racist without explaining themselves.
ReplyDelete@ stephen and tomemos...Agreed. Completely. And I'll go one step further and say that reflexive, intellectually lazy cries of racism such as that of LocCoDe cause people to turn a deaf ear to real instances of racism. Like the boy who cried wolf.
ReplyDeleteI can't believe Joe called Willie Bloomquist a racist. That was really uncalledfor.
ReplyDelete@ Josh...Well played, sir, well played.
ReplyDeleteI'll stand by my opinion.
ReplyDeleteThere's no need for a reference to another culture's language being Gibberish at any time, let alone when within very recent memory a jackass of a political figure has gotten himself in trouble for something similar.
It's a bad comparison for the story anyways. And lazy.
As for 'theangryyoungman', clearly you're an angry young man who only wants to argue. I can't be bothered.
LoCoDe: Louis CK is not calling Chinese "gibberish." He's calling the ridiculous fake Chinese that runs through his head "gibberish." Which it is; it bears no resemblance to real Chinese or any language. He's examining what it's like to have racist thoughts even when he doesn't endorse them.
ReplyDeleteYour discussion of Limbaugh getting in trouble...are you just endorsing a principle of fairness, where if Limbaugh got in trouble Louis CK should too? Without regard to the content of either bit?
I agree with angry--whom you seem to be dismissing on the basis of his name alone--that reflexive accusations of racism desensitize us to real racism. And I'll add that, if we shame anyone who discusses their feelings on race--feelings which they don't endorse or approve of--then our national dialogue on race will not improve; we'll just continue keeping the psychic harm of racism bottled up inside us.
The gibberish stuff reminds me of Joe Morgan and Moneyball.
ReplyDeleteJoe Morgan has never read Moneyball. He has admitted this many times. He disagrees with everything in it, without knowing what's actually in it. He can't believe that people think Billy Beane is a genius for writing it, even though Billy Beane didn't write it.
Joe Morgan has absolutely no understanding of anything about Moneyball, but has repeatedly taken a stand against it.
Ultimately the big dissonance is that everyone in baseball spends a lot of their time looking at stats. The only real question is which stats.
There are very few areas of endeavour where "we do it this way because we always have" is a valid reason. Sport is generally one of them. Imagine if your doctor still bled you with leeches to balance your humours because "that's the way we've always done it".
I absolutely love Joe's blogs. This is the only site I visit that has comments that are worth reading. The civil and enlightening discussion between LoCoDe, tomemos, Stephen, and TheAngryYoungMan is almost as fun to read as the article.
ReplyDeleteThank you Joe, and Brilliant Readers. (Are Brilliant Readers supposed to be capitalized?)
Before you judge Riggleman based on his commercials, stop and think: are we really to believe he wrote his own copy? He may have had input, but I hope he has better things to do with his time than writing radio ads.
ReplyDeletePeople should lay off Joe Morgan. He was a really good ballplayer--high batting average and a bunch of gold gloves, plus lots of RBIs for a little guy.
ReplyDelete@Jason
ReplyDeleteSorry, but I'm going to lower the tone of the argument for you . . . LoCeDe is an ass. An uptight, self-righteous, pompous, smug ass.
He sees the words "Chinese" and "gibberish" in the same sentence and immediately jumps to a conclusion — a conclusion not based on context and common sense but on his own self-indulgent sense of moral superiority.
In short, he's a prick.
— Graphite
JimA: That is a very valid point and is probably the truth. Riggleman may not have had any say in what he was reading. But also, do not underestimate Jim Riggleman's ability to say really, really stupid things about baseball:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.firejoemorgan.com/2008/07/jim-riggleman-has-superhero-level.html
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteHey Josh, Joe was talking about Ian Desmond, not Willie Bloomquist. Willie Ballgame would never make that Chinese Gibberish comment--I mean, he played with Ichiro, Shin-Soo Choo, Sasaki, Hasegawa, etc.
ReplyDeleteI'll admit I did look up Ian Desmond's batting average in day games, and it is .219. (.565 OPS, yuck.)
ReplyDeleteJoe, I am unclear on your citing of the runs scored with a person on first and no outs versus the runs scored with a person on second and one out. Do you mean on that at bat? Or by the end of the inning? Or are you subtracting the runs scored in which it started with a runner at first and no outs and then there was a sacrifice and therefore a runner at second with one out.
ReplyDeleteJoe, I'm a huge fan of the posts, and this was another great one, but please don't diminish yourself with that racist crap at the start. Regardless of "context" or the attempt at a joke, Louis CK's use of that old "ching chung" garbage is utterly racist. I really hope you make a brief comment about this in your next post. Using the quote was a mistake, it's really a very offensive piece of language.
ReplyDeletestephen: That's one of my all-time favorite FJM posts, mainly for this quote:
ReplyDelete"It's not the classic DH situation where you expect a professional baseball player to at least put together a major league-quality at bat, but what do I know about baseball? I'm a millet farmer from sub-Saharan Africa," Riggleman said while farming millet. "I feel good every time he walks up to the plate, primarily because here, in America, I have clean water and food with enough niacin in it to stave off pellagra. Plus, very little chance of getting sleeping sickness."
Oh, and, to people getting worked up about racism, it boils down to a basic concept: are words racist, or are meanings/ideas racist? It seems to me that there's no meaning or idea that Louis CK is conveying that's racist, but, yes, definitely the words "ching chung", used to represent the Chinese language, if words can be racist, those are racist words. Now, personally, I lean more towards the "meanings and ideas are racist, not words," side of things, so I don't really have a problem with how Joe used it. In all fairness, though, I've never been a victim of racism in my life (funny how being a white guy in the US'll do that to you), so I suppose I might not understand how words, just words, can be racist apart from their meanings.
Irishjohn: Some of us have been offering reasons above why Louis CK's bit is not offensive or racist. At the risk of sounding immodest, I suggest that you read the thread and see what you think of the points that have already been made.
ReplyDeleteYour scare quotes around "context" are puzzling--are you saying context can never make any difference i determining what is and isn't racist? After all, if you believe that "use of that old 'ching chung' garbage is utterly racist" regardless of context, then *your* use of the words "ching chung" is just as racist as Louis CK's: CK is using the words to critique them, just like you are. I therefore demand an apology from you for this very offensive piece of language.
"Joe, I am unclear on your citing of the runs scored with a person on first and no outs versus the runs scored with a person on second and one out. Do you mean on that at bat? Or by the end of the inning? Or are you subtracting the runs scored in which it started with a runner at first and no outs and then there was a sacrifice and therefore a runner at second with one out."
ReplyDeleteBy the end of the inning, from that point going on. With a man on first and no outs, you will on average score more runs than you will with a man on second and one out. The chance you will score exactly one run goes down as well. You can use this chart here, for the chance to score a certain number of runs per inning situation:
http://tangotiger.net/RE9902score.html
So, adding up the 1 to 5+ on man on first, no outs, you get a 43.7% chance you'll score at least 1 run. Adding up the same for 2nd and one out, we get a 40.5% chance of scoring at least one run. Thus, a sacrifice bunt means you've decided to adopt a strategy that will lower your chance of scoring any runs that inning.
I agree w/ Nathan (above): most everyone on this site will agree that BA is a poor proxy for offensive production. So, other than the fact that it seems to be uncorrelated with pitching skill (which is admittedly surprising, but perhaps not important), why do we care about BABIP?
ReplyDeleteWouldn't SlgBIP be more relevant? (Or, really, just Slg allowed - why discount HR?) And if so, is there a difference there between Greg Maddux and Mario Soto? In other words, maybe instead of controlling K, BB, and _HR_, pitchers can control K, BB, and _hard-hit balls_.
@Scoops and @Jay Ess -- The crazy thing about Joe Morgan's hate of Moneyball is that he was the ultimate Moneyball player! Led the NL in walks 4 times. Lifetime BA only .271, OPB, though, was .392. It's like he doesn't even realize why he was such a great ballplayer -- so bizarre.
ReplyDeleteWe don't care about BABIP. It's just a means to an end.
ReplyDeleteAnd slugging percentage against is even more fielding-dependent than batting average against.
@Roby
ReplyDeleteThanks! I was worried my comment had disappeared amongst the "What is racism" discussion -- an important one to have, but it's a tangent.
I think it'd be useful to see if pitchers can somehow control slugging on balls that aren't homeruns, but that's only real advantage I can see to using SlgBIP to just Slugging. A better stat for that might be the ratio of doubles and triples to singles against the pitcher -- triples having so much to do with the speed of the batter, which I think we can all agree with is outside the pitcher's control.
And I'll confess that I quickly tallied up the regular season 1-run wins of all 30 clubs in 2010 to confirm that the total number was indeed 732 wins. Oddly, the 6 of the Giants' 7 NL playoff wins were by one run (they were 6-1 in 1-run games during those 2 series). Conversely, only 1 of the 14 AL playoff games was decided by one run (ALCS Game 1, NYY 6 TEX 5), and no World Series game was decided by one run.
ReplyDeleteI'd love to know who decided that Riggleman should quote the number or one-run MLB wins and Ian Desmond's daytime batting average, and why in the hell they chose those two stats. Stating the obvious ... Riggleman quoting Ryan Zimmerman's NL-3B-leading 5.3 WAR simply wouldn't play to the majority of DC area talk radio listeners.
I am with the non-racist crowd when it comes to the initial quote, and I have lived in China and have a Chinese-speaking wife, so I speak as someone who at least knows what actual Chinese sounds like.
ReplyDeleteI thought (as was intended) that it was a great introduction to the piece and provided an interesting parallel with the non-SABR crowd's view of advanced statistics. All in all, as usual, I loved this post.
@IrishJohn...regardless of context? I think there is almost no such thing as racism "regardless of context." If context is irrelevant then, as so amusingly pointed out by tomemos, your use of "ching chung" is just as racist as Louis CK's.
ReplyDeleteOh but you're merely quoting the words for the purpose of criticizing so that's ok? But Louis CK was quoting the thoughts in his own head for the purpose of making fun of them. So it's ok to criticize someone else for racist words thoughts but it's not of to criticize yourself?
I suspect your heart is in the right place, but brother you're setting the discussion backward, not forward.
Getting back to baseball, @elisheva...the runs scored measurement is for any later point that inning. These are all of the possible base runner situations:
Nobody on
Man on 1st
Man on 2nd
Man on 3rd
Man on 1st & 2nd
Man on 1st & 3rd
Man on 2nd & 3rd
Bases loaded
That's it. You can have each of those 8 scenarios with 0 outs, 1 out or 2 outs, for a total of 24 "base out" situations. So you take every time a team faces each specific scenario, count how many times they went on to score 0 runs, 1 run, 2 runs, etc. later that inning, and divide to get your percentages. The chart Jeffrey Keagbine linked to is the accumulation of every such situation going back as far as the data exists.
So, across all of baseball teams will score a run at some point later that inning with a man on 1st and 0 outs more often than they will score a run later that inning with a man on 2nd and 1 out.
And since we're measuring percentages, you don't subtract any situations. So if you have man on 1st 0 outs, bunt him to 2nd, and the next guy hits a HR, those 2 runs count toward BOTH the "man on 1st, 0 out" and "man on 2nd, 1 out" percentages.
FIP is too simplistic and it sucks. I say that as a guy who loves advanced stats.
ReplyDeleteSome guys do give up more doubles and triples.
Some guys give up more line drives (even those that give up less home runs)
Some pitchers do not have the overpowering, nasty stuff for K's, but still, over an entire career, allow a low line drive percentage and do well.
A pitcher who pitches for a horrible fielding team, whose FIP shows he should be better, moves to the best fielding team, has the same year-and his FIP still shows he should be better.
Some pitchers, even those with similar peripherals over a career, give up more home runs and other extra base hits when the bases are empty, some give up more with runners on. (That's right, clutch pitching. I'm not afraid to say it!)
If you strike out a lot of guys, and give up few walks and home runs, you are probably a better pitcher than someone who is missing one of those skills. But these are not the only pitching skills. There is a ton of historical evidence that they are not. FIP is simplistic and lazy.
I gotta say, watching Joe Poz constantly turn the new school vs. old school stat argument around and around in his head is like watching a beloved grandfather slowly lose his mind.
ReplyDeleteAs a Nationals season ticket holder since the club's move here, the Riggleman ad just makes me sad.
ReplyDeleteJay Ess's "People should lay off Joe Morgan. He was a really good ballplayer--high batting average and a bunch of gold gloves, plus lots of RBIs for a little guy"
ReplyDeleteThis was magnificient.
I’m a little confused about the value of FIP. In reading this blog on a regular basis I know that Joe and others give a high value to on base percentage, the theory being that a guy who walks a lot is more valuable to the team. I don’t disagree with that theory. But that seems to create a conflict between FIP and OBP.
ReplyDeleteFIP says that a pitcher controls walks, but OBP gives a batter credit for a walk as if he controlled it. If a pitcher truly controls walks then it would seem OBP wouldn’t be much better than batting average in determining a batter’s value. In fact, you could then say that putting the ball in play is the only thing the batter controls, so batting average would be a truer measurement of his worth.
I also don’t understand how a pitcher controls homers. Is this assuming that every homer is a mistake pitch? I would think batters have at least some measure of control over the home run, or else all the fuss about steroid use and increased home run production is a moot point.
The first commercial is actually more of a head-scratcher to me. 732 games were decided by one run, which means that 70% of games were decided by more than one run, which means that goddammit we're going to play for one run!
ReplyDeleteOh well. They're radio commercials. Given a choice between selling gut feeling or selling quantitative analysis to the general public, sure, I'd sell gut feeling as well.
@ Garu Kauffman...I think you're putting a little too much emphasis on the word "control." Of course niether pitchers nor hitters have exclusive "control" of walks, Ks or HRs.
ReplyDeleteBut the point of FIP is that walks, Ks and HRs are solely the result of the battle between the pitcher and the hitter. The defense has nothing to do with it. When a hitter draws a walk it is both a win for the hitter and a loss for the pitcher. On any other result, the outcome is dependent on where the ball happens to be hit, where the fielders happen to be positioned, and how good those fielders happen to be.
Look at Scott Elarton's BABIP vs. Greg Maddux's or Roy Halladay's. If pitchers have some ability to induce batters to hit into outs, how could Elarton have a lower BABIP than two hall of famers (and many other hall of famer, btw)? The answer is they don't have any ability to induce batters to hit into outs.
Quick question about FIP: The basic premise seems to be that if a ball is hit and is within the environs of the ballpark, it could be fielded, and therefore if we take out the situations where that doesn't occur (it isn't hit (Ks and BBs) or it lands outside the environs of the field (HRs)), those numbers don't change all that much from pitcher to pitcher.
ReplyDeleteSo the question is, when a pitcher pitches half his games in a ballpark where there are unfieldable balls that stay in the field of play, does that change FIP in any significant way? In other words, does pitching your home games in Fenway Park, where clearly there a number of balls hit that are not HRs, but could never be caught by a fielder (at least until someone develops a talent for jumping 30 feet into the air), does that screw up the numbers?
Brent
@TheangryYoungMan
ReplyDeleteOK. So that was pretty much my point. _By definition_ all instances where with no outs a runner is successfully sacrificed from first to second will also be included in the percentage for scoring from first with no outs. So while the percentages Joe quoted are useful in a general sense I'm not sure how applicable they are to the specific argument. It seems to me that the point of the bunt is to _guarantee_ at the least arriving at the situation of a runner on second with 1 out. So I'd want to correct for how more likely it is to get to that situation with a bunt attempt versus swinging away which I would initially believe would be more likely to end in a double play or strikeout than the bunt.
Keep fighting the good fight, Joe.
ReplyDeleteBut pitchers do have some ability to induce batters to hit into outs. The outcome of a ball hit in play isn't just pure chance. Guys who hit more line drives get more hits. Pitchers who give up more line drives allow more hits. Last year there were 20 pitchers in the NL who allowed line drives on </=18% of their balls in play. 19 of the 20 had a better than average BABIP.
ReplyDeletePeople seem to like to point to fluctuations in BABIP as proof that chance plays a large role but it seems to me that these fluctuations are tied closely to a hitter's line drive percentage, which has nothing at all to do with chance. Look at Derek Jeter's sharp decline in 2010:
His line drive % fell from 20.3% in 2009 to 16.1%, a -21% decline.
His BA fell from .334 to .270, a -19% decline.
His BABIP fell from .368 to .307, a -17% decline.
That strikes me as a fairly strong correlation. His BABIP decline had very little to do with luck, unless one wants to argue that the ability to hit line drives is also a function of chance.
I guess my feeling on balls hit in play is that the role of luck is undervalued by average fans and sometimes overvalued by advanced stat users.
"Joseph said...
ReplyDelete@Jason
Sorry, but I'm going to lower the tone of the argument for you . . . LoCeDe is an ass. An uptight, self-righteous, pompous, smug ass.
He sees the words "Chinese" and "gibberish" in the same sentence and immediately jumps to a conclusion — a conclusion not based on context and common sense but on his own self-indulgent sense of moral superiority.
In short, he's a prick.
— Graphite
"
Who is this LoCeDe guy?
Seriously though, you have absolutely no clue about me.
So do everyone a favor and stick your VORP up your BABIP.
@ Adam and Lesley...your point? I don't see where you've commented earlier.
ReplyDeleteIn any case, you're missing the point. How a given situation was arrived at is irrelevant to the math. Teams score one run in the inning more frequently with a man on first and 0 outs than with a man on 2nd and one out. The reason is that fewer outs in the inning mean more chances left to score, and the more chances outweigh moving up from first to second.
So why would you bunt to guarantee the arrival of "man on 2nd, 1 out" when you're more likely to get a run from the "man on 1st, 0 outs" situation?
Incidentally, I'm not the best one for explanations. Perhaps someone else can explain it better than I'm explaining it because I don't like to fall back on "trust me, it's right."
Typos:
ReplyDelete"This is the sort of thing that baseball people despite." should be despise, not despite.
"Bill James figure that pitching is about 75% of run prevention with defense the other 25%." should be figures, not figure.
It takes one heck of a good writer to make me bother to mention the typos (because sometimes these articles might wind up at SI and, I hate to say it, their editors are not the greatest).
"So why would you bunt to guarantee the arrival of "man on 2nd, 1 out" when you're more likely to get a run from the "man on 1st, 0 outs" situation?"
ReplyDeleteYeah, and it's even worse than that given that the bunt attempt doesn't even guarantee man on 2nd, 1 out. Some attempts result in a force out or pop-up and leave you in man on 1st, 1 out.
Not defending Riggs in anyway (great guy, great personnel manager, not such a good baseball manager) for this "wisdom", but the best support I can offer is that anybody can hit a single... home runs are a little more difficult to come by.
ReplyDeleteAlso, if you are bunting to avoid the double play, what do you do when the opposing manager intentionally walks the next batter? Celebrate because you won the chess match and they gave you back the runner?
My question involves the pitcher at bat and man on first no outs. Has anyone done any specific studies on that (I assume it is all situations and not batter specific)? Theoretically, it should not make a difference and the pitcher should swing away but everyone sacrifices. Is there some point where the upcoming batter is so bad that the sacrifice is worth it?
ReplyDeleteI don't know whether this will make much of a difference, but it seems like the relative value of the walk-bunt-single-sac fly sequence depends on where in the batting order you are and what kinds of hitters you have.
ReplyDeleteI'm not Chinese, but I have lived in China, and I speak fluent Mandarin. Even so, I've never understood the racism implied by "ching chong." Can someone explain that to me?
Moseying on over to Baseball Reference, and checking out Mario Soto's yearly BABIP, I am moved to say that it appears BABIP was something that Soto was consistently good at.
ReplyDeleteYes, I know: the argument is that BABIP fluctuates from year to year in such a way that we believe it not to be under the pitcher's control.
Yet Soto's number doesn't appear to be fluctuating all that much. Twice in 12 years his BABIP was over .300, but it appears that his home run rate--a number which sabermetricians agree IS under the control of the pitcher--varied more.
So, is it so much to believe that BABIP might in fact be controllable to at least a subclass of certain pitchers?
@ Dave...the chart is for all situations and is not batting order specific. That said, I think people have studied it and disagreed over whether having the pitcher bunt the guy to second increases your chance of getting a run.
ReplyDeleteSome stick to the chart and say no, others have concluded that pitchers are such bad hitters that you should try the bunt because if you don't bunt the odds are very high that you'll wind up with either man on 1st 1 out, or nobody on and 2 outs.
Marshall: Sure. Basically, it implies that Chinese is meaningless gibberish. It also follows from a tradition of portraying Chinese people as animalistic jabberers. (Hence the also-racist imitations of immigrant pidgin, which I won't reproduce here.) You might watch the (hilarious) musical response to the famous Alexandra Wallace rant for some more on this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zulEMWj3sVA
ReplyDeleteBy the way, if anyone's wondering, I do also care about baseball, not just the subject of racism as my comments here might suggest.
@tomemos please tell me youre just trolling. if not i feel sorry for you.
ReplyDeleteI read a book on baseball in 1971 (yes, I am an old fart) and Earl Weaver contributed a chapter on managing.
ReplyDeleteWeaver clearly stated that he kept detailed statistics on his players so that he could come up with the best match ups possible, and provided several examples.
He also discussed the sacrifice bunt. It was the first time I learned that a runner on first with nobody out had a better chance of scoring than a man on second with one out. He discussed why you never bunt with your best players (he gave the example of Frank Robinson laying down a sacrifice, after which Boog Powell is intentionally walked. He loses two at bats from his best hitters in exchange for an out and a base. Very bad trade, he called it).
Anyway, the point I am trying to make is that this came out in 1971 and you all know how successful Earl was the rest of his career (I think he is one of the 3 or 4 best managers in history). So Earl was using sabremetrics before sabermetrics had even been invented.
Despite this success, there was no rush for teams to go out and do more research into statistics and probability when making important personnel decisions and in game strategy. Which is very odd because in baseball, usually successful methods are imitated to death.
Which brings us to today, and we have managers like Riggs who are still not invested in statistical analysis. And of course today we have far better stats to work with.
Very odd. How can you argue with success?
Trolling? Even if you think I'm an idiot, I don't see how anything I've said could be described as trolling. Can you elaborate?
ReplyDeleteThe worst gibberish in your column, Joe, is spelling it "jibberish". That's not even listed as a "also" or "alternate spelling" in any of the six online dictionaries I checked before posting. And you may be on to something in calling your posters "Brilliant Readers", as the count among them (so far) is 7 uses of "gibberish" and only one of "jibberish".
ReplyDelete@LoCoDe --
"Seriously though, you have absolutely no clue about me.
So do everyone a favor and stick your VORP up your BABIP."
So, you are alleging that nothing you have posted here reveals any information about who you are. Really? A person's writing reveal absolutely nothing about who or what they are? That's your final answer?
So, then, how exactly is it that I can tell from your very next sentence a whole lot about you, none of it particularly pleasant?
@Those debating the "man on 1st/no outs" vs. "man on 2nd/1 out", etc. topic --
It's called the "Run Expectancy Matrix" (see here for more information: http://www.tangotiger.net/wiki/index.php?title=Run_Expectancy), usually shown as an 8-row, 3-column table that shows the expected # of runs to be scored, starting from a given base-out state, through the end of the inning.
It has been known for at least a half-century, dating back to Prof. Earnshaw Cook's work, that more runs are scored from any base-out state with fewer outs than from a base-out state, even with advanced runner(s), with more outs. In other words, man on 1st/no outs will result in more runs than man on 2nd/1 out, man on 2nd/no outs will yield more than man on 3rd/1 out, etc.
Subsequent analysis has also shown that the odds of a single run scoring are also higher, so "we're not playing for a big inning, just for one run" is not a valid reason to sacrifice an out for a base either.
And thanks again, Joe, for bringing up the SMALL SAMPLE SIZE nonsense, especially at this time of the year. I just love how managers make their rosters, Opening Day lineups, etc., based on how Joe Shlabotnik* did during spring training (.337 BA in 17 games!), and ignore his previous YEARS of MLB experience (.208 BA in 8 years).
*Joe Shlabotnik:Charlie Brown::Duane Kuiper:Joe Posnanski.
@TheAngryYoungMan:
ReplyDeleteYes, actually, there are some batters (usually pithcers, of course) who are so likely to make an out anyway that the sacrifice is not necessarily a bad play. In his first book in 1966, Prof. Cook estimated that an OBP less than .140 would be required for that to be true. Given the increase in overall offense since then, the cutoff is probably closer to .120 or so nowadays.
@Mark --
Yes, Earl Weaver was a genius. I remember his saying that outs were the most important thing he had to control, because you only got 3 of them at a time to work with.
And, of course, he is most famous for describing his philosophy as "Pitching, defense, and 3-run homers" -- no "small" (or even "smart") ball for him.
In contrast to that guy who called Tonemos a troll, I'd like to thank Tonemos for continuing the discussion on race. These comments are traditionally about baseball, or at least whatever Joe is writing about ("Snuggies", for instance), so it'd be easy to brush the contentions of racism aside (especially in this day and age when there are so many things incorrectly labeled as racist).
ReplyDeleteThat said, I once again offer this up to LoCoDe and now IrishJohn: WHAT is racist about the opening Louis CK bit? Please explain this. I mean, the comic is saying that racism is wrong and it's stupid of him to have an impulsively and wrong racist thought. HOW is that racist? Neither of you have explained what you find racist about the bit, you've just called it racist.
@DavidinNYC,
ReplyDelete"Subsequent analysis has also shown that the odds of a single run scoring are also higher, so "we're not playing for a big inning, just for one run" is not a valid reason to sacrifice an out for a base either."
Just so we're not confusing the masses, you meant also "lower" not higher, right?
And on that point, I think there is one scenario in which trading an out for base increases the odds of scoring one run but the odds of scoring more than one still go down). 2nd & 3rd, 1 out yields 1 run more often than 1st & 2nd, 0 outs, does it not?
@LoCoDe
ReplyDeleteSorry I misspelled your nom de plume; careless of me.
And I shouldn't have called you a prick. I should have called you a sanctimonious prick.
— Graphite
What kind of name is graphite anyways?
ReplyDeleteAre you afraid to show anyone who you really are? Are you the twit from baseball card bust that posted the racist Jeff Leonard post?
I'm not hiding like you are "Graphite". Do me a favor, and email me outside of this blog if you really have a problem with me.
@LoCoDe
ReplyDelete"What kind of name is graphite anyways?"
It's a nom de plume; I capitalise it. I've been using the name on Joe's blogs for something like five years now.
"Are you afraid to show anyone who you really are? Are you the twit from baseball card bust that posted the racist Jeff Leonard post?"
Not afraid at all. But what's the point? If I told you I was John Betjeman from Boise, Idaho, would you be any the wiser?
Never heard of the baseball card bust or Jeff Leonard. I've never posted any racist stuff, anywhere, at any time.
"I'm not hiding like you are "Graphite". Do me a favor, and email me outside of this blog if you really have a problem with me."
Of course you're not hiding. You're LoCoDe. Of Canada. Gets upset when buying books. That fella. Famous everywhere. (I admit it, I clicked on the link to your blog.)
Don't expect an email. I've got no problem with you. I just happened to point out that you're an uptight, self-righteous, sanctimonious prick. There's nothing special in that – the world's full of the type. Luckily, Joe's blog is pretty much a prick-free site. When you turned up, I gave my opinion. End of story.
— Graphite
People, please! Let's not lose focus: Abner Doubleday called David Eckstein racist. And I, for one, won't stand for it.
ReplyDelete@ LoCoDe
ReplyDelete"Seriously though, you have absolutely no clue about me.
So do everyone a favor and stick your VORP up your BABIP."
I seem to remember you posting a mean spirited comment about a particular religion recently in comments on this blog. Therefore, I believe I know a decent amount about you (at least on that subject). Especially, because after I read that comment and it has stuck with me since and led me to view all your comments with a grain of salt.
LoCoDe, instead of jousting with Graphite, why not state your overall case more clearly? If you believe that Louis CK's bit was racist and Joe was wrong to post it, can you explain to us why you think so. Several here have explained their reasoning for their points of view that it is NOT racist. I am interested in hearing your take.
ReplyDeleteChance of scoring at least one run is the second table here:
ReplyDeletehttp://tangotiger.net/re24.html
The funnier thing about Wriggleman's quote is the Nats have more guys who can hit home runs in the lineup than ever, so the small ball stuff should REALLY be on the shelf. Desmond, might be the only starting player (besides Pudge who really shouldn't start over Ramos) who wouldn't have a shot at 20 home runs in a full season.
ReplyDeleteHey Joe,
ReplyDeleteAbove you wrote, "[w]e want to infuse pitchers with bigger roles and larger purpose. That's why we assign to them wins and losses." I completely agree with that, but I wonder if perhaps the opposite is also true: that because we assign pitchers wins and losses we want to infuse them with bigger roles--and thus validate our use of wins and losses as a way of measuring their quality.
Also, I thought your allegory of the "good play" frames the absurdity of the error nicely. It's a great way to make that point.
The constant "why is it racist" questions remind me of conversation I had before.
ReplyDeleteThis "person" couldn't figure out what was so special about Obama, other than his being black. She kept asking people what made him so special other than that (clearly because she wasn't capable of research herself) and then got upset when she was called out for being racist.
I don't need to explain myself. tomemos made an excellent comment about the issue, and was of course shot down for it.
There are those that understand the implied and actual racism in what Louis CK said, and those that are happy to turn a blind eye to or who are truly unable to comprehend.
Someone threw a banana onto the pitch at a football game in England the other day. After a nto even very dark skinned Brazilian player scored. Supposedly in this case it wasn't meant to be racist, but in many places it's common for light skinned "people" to throw bananas at dark skinned players. Some people understand the racism in that action, and others will ask "how is a banana racist"? You either get it, or you don't.
"Don't expect an email. I've got no problem with you. I just happened to point out that you're an uptight, self-righteous, sanctimonious prick. There's nothing special in that – the world's full of the type. Luckily, Joe's blog is pretty much a prick-free site. When you turned up, I gave my opinion. End of story."
Just truly pathetic. You're a sad little man "Graphite". You have no class.
@TheAngryYoungMan --
ReplyDeleteYes, you are correct; I misspoke (or miswrote).
Fewer outs leads to both more total runs and a higher likelihood of a single run.
Sacrifices are (almost always) a stupid idea.
LoCoDe:
ReplyDelete"I don't need to explain myself. tomemos made an excellent comment about the issue, and was of course shot down for it."
Actually, you do. You're calling someone racist, which isn't like simply calling someone a jerk or something. Saying, "I don't need to explain myself", is a huge cop-out. There is NO racism in Louis CK's bit, and it has been discussed by those holding that view-point ad nauseam. And, by the way, Tomemos was shot down. . .By YOU! So, what is your point?
"There are those that understand the implied and actual racism in what Louis CK said, and those that are happy to turn a blind eye to or who are truly unable to comprehend."
No, there are those who blindly toss around the word "racism" without examining an issue first, which does plenty of harm to legitimate racial discussions and actively injures race relations, and there are those who keep a cool head, read carefully, and consider the far-reaching racial implications of an act without jumping to conclusions.
Again, for like the fiftieth time: WHAT is racist about the bit? He's chastising idiotic racial thoughts; how in the world is that racist?
Apologies to anyone who does not want to read this and for continuing this, but whether he realizes it or not, LoCoDe is kind of saying that everyone on this board, save himself, is too dense to understand racism, and that's kind of irksome.
Regarding the conversation on racist vs. non-racist. It's quite clear that Louis CK is not saying that his race is superior to others, but rather he is calling himself out for his lack of understanding and knowledge of this particular culture. And in the article, I believe Joe is saying that the smart-ball type of thinking also displays a lack of understanding and knowledge.
ReplyDeleteThat being said, the language Louis CK uses could be seen as offensive. I think people too often use 'racist' when in reality they mean 'offensive', which is something different altogether.
Why BABIP? Why not slugging BIP? Everyone knows it's a better measure of hitting and it might reduce some of the averages for better pitchers and raise others.
ReplyDeleteAlso, it's not fair to say that more runs score with a runner on first and none out than with a runner on second with one out unless you take into account that it's generally the weakest hitters - pitchers in the NL, especially - who are asked to bunt. If they were asked to hit with no one out and a man on first, they'd certainly reduce the percentage of runs scored.
I don't know who this Lous CK guy is, but he should use his real name--I AM CALLING HIM OUT! Also, for those who want to keep discussing the racism/anti-racism of Mr. CK's confession, please come over to my site, www.ChineseRacism.com, we're having a great discussion there without these pesky interruptions about baseball.
ReplyDeleteIt's interesting that the bunt endures. Baseball is a high stakes game played by ultra competitive men. You'd think inefficiencies would be worked out of the system pretty fast. I think the fact that the sacrifice bunt is still around is a testament to how humans experience economics and the power of narrative.
ReplyDeleteWhen a guy scores on a broken bat single after the sac bunt, the narrative is very compelling. The language is telling: "they made something happen," "they manufactured the run."
The failure to score the run from second is a very different, and much less sticky narrative. It's the story of something that didn't happen. It's the story of the failure of two guys who failed to drive in the run; the third man who never got to bat is just a ghost. It's not hard to see why the bunt is tough to kill, even in the face of the evidence. We know this stuff happens all the time, in baseball, in life, everywhere.
I've often wonder if there isn't another reason why inefficient strategies linger on. Baseball, being played by real human beings of course, is a long and sometimes tedious affair over a long season. Most of these strategies are things that are active and, maybe more importantly, foster the illusion of control. It gives the players a task and creates activity (steal a base, hit and run, get a bunt down). It also gives the manager a role and it creates a shared narrative within the team about "playing the game right." Stuff like that is hard to get rid of. Especially when you factor in confirmation bias (remember when the bunt worked, forget the 5 times it didn't).
I find it fascinating that people are so quick to throw away FIP because it's too "rough", but then retreat to ERA, as if it were somehow simpler and more pure. ERA is contrived as well. The difference between the two is that ERA pretends like it's measuring something real while FIP admits on its face that it is just an indicator, a rough estimate.
ReplyDeleteI think there's a few reasons why there's no Slugging BABIP. First, BABIP removes homeruns from the equation, leaving us with singles, doubles and triples. This segues into another reason: triples are kind of fluky, and are largely dependent on batter speed. I assume people want to see a Slugging BABIP to get a better handle on how well a guy hits a ball, and since triples are rare and are dependent on speed (also on the fielders and the field itself), a Slugging BABIP would really boil down to how many doubles a guy has. I'm not saying there's no skill in hitting a triple, just that it seems more fluky.
ReplyDeleteHEY JOE YOU ARE THE RACIALIST CUZ YOU USED A HUMOROUS BIT ON THE COMPLEXITIES OF IGNORANCE AS A PARABLE FOR WHY DUMMIES DONT UNDERSTAND NUMBERZ.
ReplyDeleteYOU SHOULD BE CHASTISEd/EVERYONE PAY ATTENTION TO ME I AM SMARTER/COOLER/BETTER THAN YOU.
Stephen, I think you're a tad confused. I never shot down tomemos's explanation.
ReplyDeleteAnd I don't have to explain myself to you or anyone.
Tomemos posted his explanation at March 28, 2011 12:43 PM
"It also follows from a tradition of portraying Chinese people as animalistic jabberers. (Hence the also-racist imitations of immigrant pidgin, which I won't reproduce here.) "
I didn't "shoot down" anything about that.
The other thing that makes the choice of quote so questionable is that it was made by someone who clearly should know better. JoeP supports the Negro League Hall of Fame and shoots down fools like Murray Chass. For him to use someone else's questionable words was a bit disappointing.
There's a fine line between offensive and racist. Jason had a good comment: "That being said, the language Louis CK uses could be seen as offensive. I think people too often use 'racist' when in reality they mean 'offensive', which is something different altogether. "
Look, I'm genuinely not even very interested by this discussion anymore, which has gone around in circles for some time now. But I want to set the record straight about what was said, even if it's bound to be tedious to do so:
ReplyDeleteMy comment that LoCoDe quotes approvingly--about "ching chong" language "portraying Chinese people as animalistic jabberers"--was not in reference to Louis CK's bit. It was in response to Marshall's question about why "ching chong" is racist IN GENERAL (at least, that's what I took him to be asking). I think that using such words as earnest mockery--like Limbaugh did--is clearly racist. That doesn't mean it's racist to use those words *to make fun of racism*, as Louis CK is doing.
And I shouldn't have to explain any of this, LoCo, since I've already made my point on CK five times or so, and it's in opposition to yours. I don't think you're in any position to accuse people of being unperceptive.
Sometimes an airborne banana is a racist statement and sometimes it's just a piece of discarded fruit.
ReplyDeleteWhat separates the thoughtful from the kneejerkers is the ability to distinguish which is which.
— Graphite
Sorry, LoCoDe, but you're refusal to explain why the bit is racist (again, you MUST explain because calling someone or something "racist" is about as big of a deal as it gets) and your complete ignorance and arrogance on the topic mean I'll just be skipping over your posts from now on.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, if anyone is still reading, does my explanation about triples in regard to a possible Slugging BABIP make any sense?
@82cf37fe-5a27-11e0-9d98-000bcdcb471e --
ReplyDeleteWhat a lovely name! What nationality is that?
Those stats take into account EVERY situation, so the one you are describing is definitely included. Your argument is roughly equivalent to disputing the fact that the average annual temperature in NYC is 55 because it includes all those cold days in January.
Here are the things that make me skeptical about expected runs, at least from what I understand it means:
ReplyDeleteExpected runs suggests that you should expect similar outcomes from all players in all situations. If you had to make a decision without knowing the batter, the pitcher, the inning, or the pitch count, then it would make sense. But why shouldn't a manager take those things into account?
My gut tells me that expected runs figures are skewed by rallies that are caused by a struggling/tired pitcher or worn out bullpen where it wouldn't make sense to bunt.
The data that is available to calculate expected runs is influenced by the managerial philosophy of managers who probably don't manage based on expected runs. We can't know how the data would look if managers had their hitters swing away every at bat.
My only problem with the "run production is better with man on first and no outs than man on second and two outs" is that possibly one reason man on first and no outs is better is that it lets you sacrifice the guy to second in certain situations where that is a good idea (such as pitcher at the plate or fast guy who can beat out bunt for hit anyway), or not, when it's a bad idea, such as the runner on first being a slow-poke or the batter being a lousy bunter.
ReplyDeleteSo it's not like the two situations are entirely independent of one another. It would be interesting to see if one could eliminate such interactions, but I'm not sure it's possible. It's not universally the case that it's worse to sacrifice the runner to second. Plenty of times it's probably going to increase your run production overall. You just have to figure out when and why. It would be nice to have some stats that help you figure that out too.
LoCoDe's own animalistic jabbering (his argument is essentially: "if you don't know why it's racist I'm not going to tell you") actually sounds like it could come from a Louis CK stand-up routine.
ReplyDelete