I know Tara Sullivan a little bit. We have several of the same friends, and because of this we have gone to several dinners together. I like her very much. We have talked quite a lot about Springsteen and family and her father, who grew up with George Carlin. She's good company.
On Sunday, after the Masters ended, I found myself in a small pack of reporters chasing around the crumbled but proud figure that was Rory McIlroy. He had shot a miserable 80 and, after leading the Masters for three rounds, had dropped to 15th. He was very willing to talk -- I was so impressed with the way he handled himself -- but at Augusta National they make nothing easy so they had him talk for three minutes by the 18th green, then cut him off, then had him talk another two minutes by the clubhouse, cut him off, and finally they allowed him to speak another eight or nine minutes inside the clubhouse locker room. He was shocked and introspective, human and defiant, and I came away hoping he wins the next 10 majors.
In any case, as I was walking out I noticed that Bill Plaschke of the L.A. Times was talking with Tara, giving her a few of the quotes. I did not think much of it. I drove to Atlanta.
One thing I DEFINITELY did not think in 2011 was that Tara needed the quotes because she had been barred from the locker room because she is a woman. But, alas, this is what happened. Apparently, this was because of a "misunderstanding."
My point in this post is not the sexist policies of the Augusta National ... I'm pretty sure there will be no movement in how people feel about those. But I should pause for a moment to say that "misunderstanding," seems the wrong word choice here. Restrictive clubs do not have misunderstandings. They have policies they hope nobody will challenge. They have neanderthal views they mostly cloak in public and happily and pompously share behind closed doors -- after those closed doors are locked. Yes, they make the rare exceptions to their restrictive policies to keep things legal -- women reporters ARE, in fact, supposed to be allowed in the locker rooms during the Masters; longtime golf writer Melanie Hauser has been there often. I suspect that memo doesn't always get circulated.
The Club, as is its legal right, is an openly and defiantly misogynistic club ... its members once broadcast the Masters without commercials rather than allow their beloved sponsors to face the wrath of fair-minded people who believe that maybe 90 or so years after women got the vote in this country, America's most beloved and sought after private golf club might consider inviting a woman or two to join in all its reindeer games.
I also have to admit I have a hard time building up much rage about the Augusta women membership issue. I don't want my daughters to face closed doors and glass ceilings in their life. That's one of the driving purposes of my life. On the other hand, I REALLY don't want them to be members of Augusta National. A ludicrously rich group of men will not invite a ludicrously rich woman to join their ludicrously exclusive club with its shameful history of denying anyone even slightly different? That's not in my world.
But this -- not allowing a woman to do her job because she's a woman? That is in my world. And excluding women is not a "misunderstanding" at Augusta. The word is laughable. Excluding women is a policy. It's an overriding theme of the place. Should the guard have known that women reporters during Masters week are an exception to that policy of no women allowed. I would hope so. Maybe she was told and forgot. Maybe not. But you know how they say it's always easier to ask for forgiveness than permission. At Augusta National it's easier to bar women first and declare misunderstandings later.
But, again, revisiting Augusta National's close-mindedness is not my point here. No, my point is Tara, and the dignified way she handled this. And, more, some of the reaction to that. The comments. One of the touchstone issues of our era are the comments below stories you see on the Internet. They are sometimes vile, hateful, racist and sexist. They are sometimes mean-spirited, vicious, anonymous and cold-hearted. The are sometimes so crude and painful that you can't help but hope that you do not live next door to any of these people.
I can remember The Kansas City Star once writing a story about the employees who had been laid off because of the terrible new economics of the newspaper industry. These were my friends, many of them, good people who work hard and have families and didn't deserve that sort of terrible blow in their lives. Below the story was comment after comment from giddy, grotesque and anonymous people crowing that those people deserved to be fired because the Star is such a terrible newspaper. And my heart ached.
I'm not sure what it is about comments that can bring out such terrible words from people. Anonymity, maybe? The ease of typing? I must admit that I've watched in wonder the comments in this blog because they are almost always (and I mean 99.9%) well reasoned, thoughtful and overwhelmingly kind. I don't just say that because of the nice things people say about me, though I obviously appreciate those. Even when people disagree or don't like something, it's most often done in the spirit of generosity. When someone steps over a line, other commenters almost always step in and say we don't want that kind of viciousness here. We don't need it. Go comment somewhere else. And, surprisingly often, the angry commenter will step back, perhaps even apologize. People often ask me why I dedicate so much of myself to the writing on this blog, why I write my heart out for it, and the answer is too complicated to explain (maybe even too complicated for me to understand) but one of the core reasons are the commenters, your intelligence, your friendliness, your thoughtful points both for and against. As my Dad likes to say, "Boy do you have smart commenters." I feel lucky that we have our own little corner of the Internet.
But I also realize that it is a small corner. I almost never read the comments below stories anywhere else because they can depress me to the point where I don't want to leave the house.
Well, I read Tara's recap of the Augusta National saga. And the thing that struck me about it was its undeniable reasonableness. There was no shouting in it. No exclamation points. No Norma Rae sign holding. There was not even any anger, and she deserved some anger. You could tell, without even knowing Tara, that she wished more than anything that this hadn't happened. You could tell that she wanted nothing more than being allowed to do her job. You could tell by the simple way she explained what had happened.
She was in our group of reporters following Rory McIlroy into the locker room -- I did not see her, she was apparently in the back of the group. She was stopped by a female security guard and told she was not allowed in. Tara tried to explain that she needed to go in, that this was her job. She was told again no. She looked for a Masters official and could not find one. She did not make a scene. She did not start a fight. She simply waited outside and, as I saw, got the quotes from Bill Plaschke. Other reporters offered her the quotes as well.
Then she went back to her desk and tweeted this: "Bad enough no women members at Augusta. But not allowing me to join writers in locker room interview is just wrong."
That's all. A simple tweet. Tara was all so utterly reasonable that people around her want to be ANGRY FOR HER. In her recap, she gave Augusta National a full opportunity to apologize and call it a misunderstanding. And in fact when Augusta DID apologize, Tara broke away from her deadline story (she wrote a fine piece about McIlroy) and gave Augusta National two tweets.
In her wrap-up, she explained -- as she should not have to explain -- that barring a woman from doing her job in America is illegal (she didn't even get into it being immoral). She did not explain that there was nobody else in the locker room, and that McIlroy was only going in there to pick up some mail and things. She was not just fair in her recap, she was OVER THE EDGE fair, like a referee swallowing the whistle in the final minute of an NBA game. I don't see how there could be any reaction other than "Good on ya, Tara."
The second comment below her story asked if men are allowed in WNBA locker rooms (of course we are).
The third comment had the amazing sentence, "This nonsense about equality goes a little too far sometimes."
The seventh comment questioned why Tara wanted even more information, as if her reporter instincts were off.
The ninth comment appeared to be a word representing someone crying.
A comment from the much-beloved philosopher Shortbusdriver, makes the perfunctory point: "You got what you needed. End of discussion."
There you go. Shortbusdriver says, "End of discussion." That pretty much closes this thing out, right? Hey, Shortbusdriver said so. There are others like that, angrier and angrier as they go. And some of the comments, at least according to one commenter, were taken down. I can only imagine how bright those comments must have been.
I know that Tara has gotten a lot of support from people. I know many, many people have contacted her to stand with her. Still, I wonder sometimes what these comments say about the world where we live. I wonder how Shortbusdriver or anyone else would handle that sort of open, in your face discrimination ... being told openly that you are not worthy of the same rights as everyone else, you cannot do your job like everyone else, because, after all, you are a woman or black or Jewish or Catholic or blue eyed or Harrison Ford. I wonder because, hey, these people are this angry NOW ...
Last week, when Butler played VCU during the Final Four game, I happened to be sitting near a very loud Butler fan. And all game long he screamed at the officials. It was non-stop. "Where's the traveling call, ref? ... How could you miss that foul? ... That's over the back ... When are you going to call this thing fairly? ... Why won't you let them play? ... When are you going to make a call?" On and on and on and on. I've heard people yell at officials pretty much all my life, but I can never remember hearing anyone so determined.
At some point, I started to wonder what motivates someone like that. What could possibly keep him screaming? Is he unhappy with his life? Does he have terrible frustrations he needs to unload? Is he an amateur referee who simply cannot abide bad calls? As the game went on, it became clearer and clearer that Butler was going to win, but his anger to the referees never subsided. It never even diminished. In the last minute, with Butler up by nine, he was still yelling at the referees, just as loud, just as intently, with the same fury.
I was pretty close to going up to him to ask why he kept yelling. I was really interested. But I had work to do and anyway I suspect he wouldn't have given me much of an answer. He might have punched me in the face. He probably would have thought I was making fun of him. But I was really curious and I am really curious: What is it that drives people to be so angry? Maybe it's just the fog of the times. Maybe, in the end, we all just want to be heard.
another fantastic post Joe
ReplyDeleteExcellent post Joe. I often wonder the same things when reading comments on stories, so much mean-spiritedness out there.
ReplyDeleteA Tradition Like No Other.
ReplyDelete"But I also realize that it is a small corner. I almost never read the comments below stories anywhere else because they can depress me to the point where I don't want to leave the house."
ReplyDeleteThis. 100%.
I can't tell you how happy I am about the commenting here. Seen too many good sites go to pot while the moderators were either overwhelmed or just gave up on policing the place. Having a self-correcting group like in here is water in the desert. And I like to think that your class and skill set the tone - we all have to raise our game to keep up with you (and thus each other).
ReplyDeleteThanks for everything.
(Regarding the refs in Butler/VCU - as an amateur (sometimes) ref and rec-league athlete, I've seen it a thousand times, for far smaller stakes than a trip to the NCAA Men's Basketball Championship Game: the worst ref in the world is always the one who just finished working your game.)
I think it's pretty simple: there are still a lot of people out there who believe some pretty awful things. I'm sure there are still all kinds of men (and, heck, maybe even some women) who have no problem with women being treated like second-class citizens in society. And if you met these people on the street they would look just like everyone else, and they wouldn't be likely to say these sorts of things to your face. But get them in front of a computer, behind a more or less anonymous username, and watch them say every horrible little thing they're thinking. It truly is the worst thing the internet has given us.
ReplyDeleteGreat post. I agree 100%; to call this a misunderstanding is a joke. Maybe if this happened at another golf tournament/golf course you could make that argument and even then a stretch. But at Augusta? No way. I'm not saying it was an intentional plot to keep her from doing her job but that institution has created a culture of discrimination and it shows in every “misunderstanding.”
ReplyDeleteIt was something like 20 years ago that one of Tara's colleagues at our school paper was denied access to the locker room after a Rutgers football game at Syracuse. I remember resenting that we had to devote space to the controversy -- actually being mad at Syracuse for doing something so stupid that we had to spend the inches on it, instead of on sports. Not because woman's issues aren't important, but because all that writer wanted to do was cover the game like everyone else.
ReplyDeleteIf you know Tara, you probably know she's been dealing with this crap, on and off, throughout her career. So at least take solace that she (and probably most other women in sportswriting) are prepared by events to deal with it, when it happens, as well as Tara did.
I think anonymity emboldens people with regards to negative comments. It's a sad and unfortunate result of our increasingly virtual lives.
ReplyDeleteA big part of the answer to Joe's question is deindividuation: http://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/02/10/deindividuation/
ReplyDeleteA major part of the reason the tone and tenor of the conversations here is different is because the users actively discourage bad behavior: "When someone steps over a line, other commenters almost always step in and say we don't want that kind of viciousness here."
Simple, yet powerful.
As a man I once knew used to say "Why do you have to cut me down to make yourself seem taller?". I understand the anger and frustrations that are out there, but I don't get the mean-ness at all.
ReplyDeleteGreat post, Joe. Your final question may be unanswerable.
ReplyDeleteI hope this post doesn't get you banned from reporting at Augusta in the future.
Thanks for writing this. I know Tara a little from MLB and NFL locker rooms; not only is she a complete professional, but she was extremely kind and helpful to me when I was new to sports writing and trying to figure out how everything worked. I was not so much shocked that this happened -- Augusta, sexist?! Stunner -- but that many people, as you say, seem to think she was complaining about nothing. It's incredibly frustrating.
ReplyDeleteI was going to comment, but I'm too intimidated!
ReplyDeleteIt's amazing how much rage gets thrown around these days - rage that is either misplaced, or over issues that don't warrant so much anger.
ReplyDeleteIt wasn't always like this, was it?
Part of the problem, I think, is the pervasive entitlement mentality by which our culture is becoming more and more defined. "I am entitled to fairness (however I define fairness) in all things ... I am entitled to speak or type whatever comes to mind regardless of how it affects anyone else ... When it comes to getting what I want (actually, what I deserve) everyone else is merely an object that helps me or hinders me, rather than a real person."
ReplyDeleteIs there any chance that before the next Masters this issue can be cleared up so that no future "misunderstanding" is possible? Might some of the big employers of sportswriters (one comes instantly to mind) apply some pressure to Augusta to assure this outcome?
ReplyDeleteIt's the knee-jerk defensiveness that gets me. I read Sullivan's story and made the mistake of reading the comments, and the way people acted as though her article was a furious screed against Augusta, rather than an even-keeled explanation of what happened, was really baffling. It's as though people say, "Well, **just by mentioning this,** you're bringing up the subject of sexism, so I have to weigh in with how feminism is nonsense and you should stop whining." And you see this all the time now: people have arguments with their betes noires, rather than engaging with the words that were actually said.
ReplyDeleteThanks for writing this Joe.
ReplyDeleteThe internet has created a 'safe' environment for the Shortbusdriver's of the world. I would bet that this clown wouldn't have the courage to say his piece to Tara's face.
Good on Tara for taking the high road and being a pro.
Joe,
ReplyDeleteWonderful piece. You touch on something I wonder a lot myself. I have also risked the punch in the face to ask people that question at sporting events (usually it's my fellow fans, so they might cut me that break), and I often hear, "you're mistaking my passion for anger." On a few times, I've had the gumption to say, "I think it might be you that's confusing the two..."
It's a shame. Regardless, great piece.
I was at a home-hosted conference tournament game, and the woman in front of me was firmly of the opinion that the young man from Canada with features & a name that could lead one to conclude that he was of Arabic descent was not getting called for fouls because the Refs were afraid to offend him. The arena was full of people yelling at the Refs and accusing them of all kinds of foul miscalls. At the end of the game when the players did their handshake I commented that the players get along better than the fans do & she got mad at me because she thought I was picking on her. I always get into trouble!
ReplyDeleteThey scream and they comment because they have very little sense of self-worth beyond that in which they are interested and they are convinced of their righteousness. Those little screams and comments are windows into their world and the way they believe it is or should be. Their identity IS being right. It must be fiercely protected or it will collapse.
ReplyDeleteSad.
As a father of a daughter, as a human being, as a sports fan ... I agree with every word of this. I'm annoyed with newspapers for not moderating their comments better -- it's like they've decided to become publishers of hate speech.
ReplyDeleteJoe, I respect you soooo much. I love your writing. But there's a reason I read your pieces here, and not at SI. That reason is the wonderful, intelligent commenters. The only blogs I comment on regularly (and on which I regularly read the comments) are here and at Baseball-Reference, where the community also engages in the same kind of self-policing. That's the way it should be. And, unsurprisingly, when people stand up to bullies, the bullies usually back down.
ReplyDeleteI wonder when it became the obvious, consensus opinion that people of different sex should be allowed into athletes' private changing areas. We don't seem to have reached this consensus in other aspects of our life. Toilets are not unisex. Changing rooms in clothing stores are not unisex. Regular old locker rooms in athletic clubs like 24 Hour Fitness are not unisex. But at some point the decision was reached that of course women reporters should be allowed access to private changing areas where athletes are walking around naked. And not only is this the consensus opinion, but those that feel differently are unthinking sexists.
ReplyDeleteIf it's sexist to not allow women reporters into male athletes' locker rooms, then don't let any members of the press into any athletes' locker rooms. Problem solved.
If you think those comments were ignorant, you should check out Yahoo news. The comments section of any Yahoo news article is the nadir of human civilization. I've never seen so much virulent racism in my life. This one published 31 minutes ago is already plastered with 31,000 comments like "REAL Americans support Arizona but the government ignores us to suck up to the Mexican vote." or "When I call customer service I should never have had to hear 'press 1 for English and 2 for spanish'" Who cares just press 1 you turd.
ReplyDeleteAnonymity does have its benefits and should not be stomped out. However unless we all start policing ourselves, the Facebooks of the world will take over. As someone who works in the industry, it is expensive and time consuming to filter and review comments. So when Facebook starts offering to allow comments to be filtered through the Facebook account (and an added benefit of user information across sites), you can bet people will follow along (NYT article recently on it) and use it. Long story short is we need to be civil and police ourselves (one of the reason why I only read comments here and at AV Club). People here show that most people are pretty smart and passionate.
ReplyDeleteHey Vidor, are you required to follow ordinary people into dressing rooms/toilets to do your job? (The answer I believe for 99.9% of us would be no unless you have a REALLY strange career). Sports journalists are. It's where athletes are accessible after games. And the athletes really could not give a flip who sees them naked.
ReplyDeleteOr are you saying you are trying to "protect" the women (as if they need it)?
I think with "our" site here, we have the advantages that Joe's pieces are generally very long and nuanced and detailed and thus only people intelligent and old enough (I think this part cannot be understated) to get through them and form an opinion would take the time to comment.
ReplyDeleteI don't think Joe is overly concerned with view counts or demographics on this site. But I bet we trend older and better educated than more mainstream sites. On Yahoo or CNN, they have a more simplistic writing style and shorter articles and chase after high view counts... well, most people are idiots so if that's what you're chasing after, then that's what you'll get in your comment section.
My point after this poorly written and elitist nonsense... this site (and Joe) (and the commentators) are terrific.
Scroll the comments here and you'll an uncommonly high percentage are made by people who use their real names. Sometimes it's just a first name, but it's not some pithy handle that is easily hidden behind. While there are plenty of anonymous people who make civilized, thoughtful comments, my guess is that a far higher percentage of people who use all or part of their actual name are avoiding the kind of vitriol Joe is referring to. People just seem to do far nastier things when they can do secretly than they would ever consider doing with the cloak of anonymity. And that's pretty depressing.
ReplyDeleteReminds me of an article I read in Slate a while back about how online anonymity breeds incivility: http://www.slate.com/id/2287739/
ReplyDeleteIt's a pretty good read.
Great piece, Joe. It needed to be said. I have to moderate blog comments for my newspaper, and it disgusts me sometimes.
ReplyDelete"are you required to follow ordinary people into dressing rooms/toilets to do your job?"
ReplyDeleteNope.
But the point remains that in every other place in the United States where people commonly shower, relieve themselves, or change their clothes, the right to have those areas be single-sex is universal and undisputed. In fact one of the most effective lines of attack that conservatives deployed against the ERA back in the 1970s was the fear that it would compel public restrooms to be unisex. (That was nonsense, but it worked.)
But somehow in this one particular are not only has that consensus been done away with it, but one is a knuckle-dragging sexist if one thinks the consensus should apply there too.
I am so glad I found this article.
ReplyDeleteI read Tara's very reasonable and factual piece regarding her being refused admittance to the locker room at Augusta National. She handled the situation with utter professionalism and aplomb. Yet I was dis-heartend, disgusted, and disappointed in my fellow humans who chose to comment in such a raging sexist way.
Honestly stuff like that has become so very common in this era of no holds barred anonymous internet communications. Frustrated mysogynists feel safe to proclaim through the internet their hatred and jealousy of professional women, in particularly those who have earned their way into what was considered a "man's world" like sports writing and virtually anything to do with sports other than cheerleaders or maybe massuesses.
This article and the intelligent comments have given me some hope there are still men who understand and value the work of women in professional sports. Thank you!
I've aways appreciated the comments on this site. It is a pleasure to read the thoughts from brilliant readers because often times it is a continuation of the thoughts presented in Joe's piece and sometimes just as interesting. This piece made me think about why the disagreements in the comments don't escalate on this site as quickly as they do on other sights. I wondered if it is partly because of Joe's model of disagreement in his posts.
ReplyDeleteOne other thing: it starts from the top. Joe draws civil comments because he is so civil himself.
ReplyDeleteThis site, Joe, is a gem in an ocean of turds (to be polite), and an awful lot of that has to do with the commenters -- or, as you so charitably refer to us, the Brilliant Readers. I refuse to read the SI version of these posts precisely and exclusively because of the ignorance and vitriol displayed in the comments.
ReplyDeleteI don't have either the time or the energy to get into a long sociological dissertation about why most commenters (or a depressingly large minority, at least) are so boorish (to put it nicely), other than to say that when the richest of the rich have almost everything, the rest of us have to fight for the table scraps, and that makes many people angry in their insecurity.
They're doing what's called trolling. Which is an attempt to illicit a reaction from someone. The best way to combat trolls is by ignoring them.
ReplyDeletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29
Thanks for this, Joe. I agree with some of the other commenters who have noted that with your own tone, you set the stage for civility in the comment thread. There's quite a lot of anger and bitterness that appears with bylines under it, or on television or radio... the anonymity of the comment thread doesn't help.
ReplyDeleteThere's certainly a lot of anger out there, and a lot of people feeling powerless. It's a difficult place to be, and I think it contributes to a lot of the anger we see. In America we put forth a myth of our own independence and self-sufficiency... all the while ignoring the fragile international web that makes our lifestyle possible. We all walk around mostly focused on how little power we have and how much other people seem to have in comparison-- we also have a lot invested in our way of viewing the world (and ourselves). It's not a good combination for civil discussion.
You suck!
ReplyDeleteJust kidding. Awesome post Joe, just awesome. I too wonder why "yells at the ref guy" does it."
I also feel terrible for Tara but she handled with grace and dignity.
Great article and keep up the great work.
Lack of integrity - what people do when no one is looking; when they're by themselves. The Internet has sure given rise to people to do whatever they want whenever they want in anonymity. From comments on blogs to the types of things you type into the Google search bar; it's all fair game - no restrictions. If anything the Internet is a study on human behavior when all the social rules are taken away - not pretty.
ReplyDeleteThis speaks highly of the folks who comment on this blog who obviously show discipline and self control.
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ReplyDeleteAnd Mr. McIlroy was found lucky upon the club realizing his origin as NORTHERN Irish, as opposed to Irish. As if the fine people of Agusta would sully thier fine championship hoisting The Green Jacket upon the shoulders of some vagrant Dubliner with Cathlolic blood coursing thru his veins!! Padraig Harrington is still indignant of the fact that all of the potatoes on the premisis have been used for pheasant feed!!
ReplyDelete@Vidor: While I understand where your point is coming from, I think there's a distinction to be made. This is purely speculation on my part (and I reside in the fat part of the intelligence Bell Curve, so take it for what it's worth, I guess), but I think the difference between every day bathrooms/locker rooms/etc. is a private versus public thing. If all public bathrooms were unisex, I imagine that sexual harassment and other violent crimes of a sexual nature would be rampant, or at least safety would be a major concern. Interviews in a locker room--in addition to being an actual job--are conducted in a credentialed and anything-but-anonymous fashion where all parties are in agreement as to their existence.
ReplyDeleteBasically, what I'm saying is that public restrooms are separate for safety issues that generally (at least one would hope) are not an issue in a private situation such as a sports interview in a locker room. Remove the safety issues, and then it *does* become an issue of inequality if either sex is denied the opportunities of the other sex. Hope this makes sense.
I am not a frequent commenter on this blog (I think that I only posted one previous comment on the old site) but I have found that I often, if not always, read the comments on each post. I didn't really think about it before, but after reading this post I realized that I never read the comments on other sites, whether blogs or news stories. I think Joe's explanation, and that of many others on here has opened my eyes to the reasons why. The commenters hear are worth reading; they have something thoughtful to say and they usually say it in a civil and intelligent way. That isn't so elsewhere, and to read what I consider to be the intentionally antagonizing vitriol spouted by so many elsewhere just is not worth the time. I try to sell this site to anyone that will listen, whether they are sports fans or not, because of the quality of the content and the breadth of meaning in the writing that extends far beyond sports, even in the most pointedly sports-related entries. It's a great place to be a reader and I keep thinking that it might inspire me to do more writing of my own.
ReplyDeleteI think Vidor raises a valid point above. I honestly don't know why writers need post-game locker room access. Maybe Joe can explain. On the collegiate level everything is done via press conference (isn't it?) and that seems to work out okay.
ReplyDeleteI thought Sullivan's response was completely classy and appropriate and recognized the fact that it really was a simple misunderstanding.
I don't know how much outrage can credibly be mustered up over this. Augusta National is a sexist, private club. Everybody knows this when they pay for their badge or apply for their credential. Clubs that discriminate are inevitably going to have misunderstandings rooted in discrimination. If it really bothers you, don't go. It rankles me when people try to have it both ways. You can't support a sexist institution and then claim outrage when you see sexism in action.
All it would take is for the PGA to declare Augusta "off-limits" for competition and the policies would change immediately including women membership. Imagine if all the Masters Champions agreed to never return? Every time they tee it up there they silently support the blight on America that Augusta represents.
ReplyDeleteHere in NYC, Mike Lupica doesn't allow comments under his columns on the newspaper website. I've always assumed trolls are the reason why. I think most major news sites would do well just to shut the anonymous comments off. All you ever get there are hate-filled rants from SlowBusRiders.
ReplyDeleteI find it perfectly reasonable for a female journalist to be denied access to a male locker room. Male journalist are NEVER allowed in female locker rooms. However, you never see them tweet or write a column about it about the "injustice". For male journalists, that's just the way it is.
ReplyDeleteThe REAL problem is the double-standard for gender equality, and the "white knights" that feel a desire to protect the oppressed.
Let me throw this out there and let me know what you BRs think.
ReplyDeleteJoe said he was in a pack of writers heading for the locker room, right? And this guard stops a member of this group of writers and bars her from going in the locker room.
My question is this:
Why did not the rest of those writers stop and shout out in outrage about this. Why didn't they demand some Masters bigwig to come over and overrule this dimwit guard? How many writers were there? 50? 100? You don't think a quick protest would have brought immediate relief to the situation? Were the deadlines so tight that they could not spend a little time righting this outrage (and it was an outrage; I mean, just appalling).
Are those fair questions? Please comment.
Mark from Las Vegas
"I don't know how much outrage can credibly be mustered up over this. Augusta National is a sexist, private club. Everybody knows this when they pay for their badge or apply for their credential. Clubs that discriminate are inevitably going to have misunderstandings rooted in discrimination. If it really bothers you, don't go. It rankles me when people try to have it both ways. You can't support a sexist institution and then claim outrage when you see sexism in action."
ReplyDeleteThis kind of appeal to consistency seems misguided to me. Like it or not, Augusta is very important to the golf world. If you're a reporter who wants to cover golf, you are not free to just not go. Nor are you necessarily endorsing Augusta's policies by covering the golf there.
I pay my taxes to the US government; am I not allowed to complain when they do something I dislike? I work for a large organization; am I not allowed to complain about its policies? Both positions would be absurd.
@Mark: As to your first comment (if you're both the same Mark), you're wrong. Men journalists are allowed in female locker rooms. Joe mentions it in this blog post. I also did a quick internet search and confirmed it many times over; here's one link:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.jonathanhoodshow.com/?p=2851
As to your second comment, as Joe said, she was in the back of the group and it's likely that no one even knew what was happening until later. Tara did not make a scene, so who knows if anyone even knew what was happening until they came out of the locker room later and talked to her? As Joe said, she handled it quietly.
"I find it perfectly reasonable for a female journalist to be denied access to a male locker room. Male journalist are NEVER allowed in female locker rooms."
ReplyDeleteWell, if you read the post you're commenting on, you'll notice that Joe says you're wrong: "The second comment below her story asked if men are allowed in WNBA locker rooms (of course we are)." So do you have any information contradicting him?
"The REAL problem is the double-standard for gender equality"
*spit-take* The double standard for gender equality?? You mean the one in which women are paid less than men, women are expected to sacrifice their careers for their families while men aren't, women who have sex with multiple partners get called sluts while men don't, and so on…is that the double standard you have in mind?
I was a newspaper reporter for a while — a short while. The reason it was a "short while" is that I was dreadful at the bad news stuff. With the feelgood stuff I was okay, just, and I wrote a few goodish pieces. But if I asked a question and someone didn't want to answer it I automatically sided with them. I'm a private person myself, and I'd take the "what damn business is it of yours" view.
ReplyDeleteI can tell you, if it had been Woodward and Graphite instead of Woodward and Bernstein, the Watergate scandal would never have happened. Luckily I was working far far away in the harmless world of horse racing.
But while I recognise the need for a free and vigilant press, essential for democracy to work, there are many many times I look at what they do and the way they work and I just shake my head and sigh.
On the lower end of that scale is the locker room interview. I'm with Vidor and Mikey here.
I have this picture in my mind — that Joe has painted — of McIlroy being pursued by a gaggle of reporters from greenside to clubhouse to locker room, bailing him up at every step to fire questions at him.
And this is a guy in the most desperate moment of his sporting career. Yet when he steps into what should be a sanctuary of sorts the pack follows, like hyenas chasing wounded prey.
The question shouldn't be why was one member of the pack denied access to be in at the kill. The question should be, why weren't the whole pack told, "Sorry. The locker room is for players only."
— Graphite
Stephen
ReplyDelete2nd Mark, the one from Vegas. NO ONE noticed? I find that impossible to believe. But if they had noticed, and done nothing, that does not reflect well on them, does it? Or am I off base on that?
@ Vidor...(and Graphite)...simply denying access to all reporters is absolutely one solution to the "problem" of allowing reporters in locker rooms of the opposite sex. Nobody is making the leagues let reporters in the locker rooms.
ReplyDeleteBut the leagues are not prepared to ban all reporters from the locker rooms. The leagues want reporters (and by extenstion, fans) to have that kind of access to their players. It helps sell tickets (and advertising). So if they (the leagues) want the financial benefits that come from allowing reporters to have access to their players in the locker rooms, they don't have the right to say that male reporters can have that access but not female reporters.
All of that said, I find it surprising that any reporters are allowed in the locker room at Augusta. I would have thought there'd be some press tent where all of the contenders sat down for a mini-press conference after their round each day. Isn't it that way in tennis? I don't believe there are any reporters in the locker rooms at most tennis tournaments. Am I wrong about that?
"And this is a guy in the most desperate moment of his sporting career. Yet when he steps into what should be a sanctuary of sorts the pack follows, like hyenas chasing wounded prey."
ReplyDeleteMaybe ease up on the throttle a bit there. Aside from the overheated prose, since when has the locker room been "a sanctuary of sorts," in any pro sport?
"The question shouldn't be why was one member of the pack denied access to be in at the kill. The question should be, why weren't the whole pack told, 'Sorry. The locker room is for players only.'"
Except that question never gets asked, ever, about any sport. Every single time a player or coach or officiant has a bad day, they hear from reporters, and I've never heard anyone bemoan that... except, for some reason, whenever there's a controversy about a female journalist (see: Ines Sainz).
If you genuinely believe that there should never be locker room interviews, more power to you. I think you'll find it a lonely position, though, and I think if you had your way it would make sports journalism surprisingly lifeless.
I can't remember such collective and uniform indignation from the Fourth Estate regarding any other issue. Whether the subject has been Michael Vick, steroids, DUI's, wife beating, etc. no situation gets reporters as upset as the notion of a reporter being denied access to a locker room.
ReplyDeleteNo, she should not have been treated differently from guys with that same job. Thing is none of them (male or female) should be in any locker room. Give the athletes at least one stink'n place with privacy.
I think there are perfectly legitimate arguments to be made about keeping the locker rooms gender specific. I think there are even beetter good arguments to be made against allowing press access to locker rooms period. I do not think those commenters care about such arguments. They're lashing out at what they view as an unfortunate change to our culture, though they'd phrase it in more vulgar terms.
ReplyDeleteAs for why people are needlessly angry, I don't know. We aren't very far removed from the apes that spawned us. Some of us show it more than others.
Yikes. Please ignore the grammar in that last comment.
ReplyDeleteI've made several attempts to post this comment with no luck. Apologies if this shows up ten times in a row at some point...
ReplyDeleteThanks for the post, Joe.
I've been living under a rock the past few days so the only I'd heard of this situation was from Ken Tremendous' tweets.
The holistic protection of anonymity in speech by the Supreme Court is worrisome to me. I wholly understand and stand behind the ideas that speech I abhor should be protected to maintain a "marketplace of ideas" and that anonymous speech was and is instrumental to speech in this country(see: the Federalist Papers, Common Sense). But the internet is an entirely different animal.
Speech has its limits, whether it be obscenity, "fighting words", libel, slander or the imminent threat of danger. If anyone crosses these lines outside of this virtual world, those injured by the speech have a path for recourse.
As it stands now, there is absolutely NO recourse for individual victims of anonymous libelous or slanderous speech on the internet. This is wrong. We have the constitutional right to a remedy when a tort has been made against us.
The problem lay in the impossibility of policing the internet. Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act provides immunity to all ISPs from content posted by their users. As I see it, this is as it should be. They cannot be expected to police every post from every user nor should they be liable for it; just because it's there doesn't mean they condone it. So what do we do then? Is it even possible to make internet users accountable?
I really like the new procedure of most sites that requires users to sign in to a profile (Google, Facebook, etc.) as this blog now does. It's not a panacea, but it is definitely a step in the right direction.
Unfortunately, as this Fangraphs article illustrates, if you breach the wrong subject on any site, no matter how progressive the readers are supposed to be, you're apt to get some vitriolic, ignorant comments. It's terribly sad that these people feel the need to air their rage at the expense of other people, but it's also enlightening to know that these opinions aren't only still out there, but also surprisingly prevalent.
Oops, here is the Fangraphs article I alluded to above.
ReplyDeleteThis is perhaps an odd analogy, but Xbox Live has a similar problem: people who speak/whisper/shout/rap utter nonsense or unbelievable hate speech into the microphones during games. In this instance, though, I think it is more for fun—I think it's called "trolling". The idea is to elicit a response, since it's "fun" to watch someone (rightly) become angry.
ReplyDeleteOh well, world. We tried.
Being rude in the comments on this blog would be like farting in front of the queen.
ReplyDeleteThis post answers the question in my head of whether Joe reads the comments.
ReplyDeleteHi, Joe!
test
ReplyDeleteMost comment threads in most parts of the internet only confirm the theory John Gabriel espoused just over 7 years ago: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/3/19/
ReplyDelete- The active sportswriters here can correct me on this, but don't most pro sports have an area where players can "hide" away from the press if they don't want to deal with them in the locker room, usually a training area?
ReplyDelete- I believe American sports are the only place where reporters are allowed in locker rooms. I know in futbol and at the Olympics, there is "a mix zone" where the players come out and reporters have to try and buttonhole someone.
- Mark Cuban has been talking lately about reporters in the locker room and has made noise (such as on lebatard's show last week) about wanting them banned and how he would willingly pay the fines involved and try and spearhead a ban in the offseason. His logic is being tired specifically of web reporters there just to generate stories for page hits and not do any real journalism.
- Personally, I have not had much use for the post-game locker room scrum. If that were to be replaced, I would not shed a tear, assuming some kind of commensurate access was available and things like pre-game avails were not taken away.
tomemos writes: "Like it or not, Augusta is very important to the golf world. If you're a reporter who wants to cover golf, you are not free to just not go. Nor are you necessarily endorsing Augusta's policies by covering the golf there."
ReplyDeleteI disagree. You are absolutely free to not go provided you're willing to accept the consequences of the choice. People often say they have no choice when in fact what they really have is a choice that makes them uncomfortable.
On some level you are endorsing Augusta's policies by covering the tournament, or buying a badge, or even just watching it on TV. You're making a choice that the benefits of participating outweigh the ethical considerations.
Look, I'm not claiming the moral high ground. I attended The Masters last year, loved it, and would go again. I also recognize that in a small way I supported an openly sexist club by attending. I guess all I'm saying is that if you're going to go, at least own the fact that you are part of the problem.
Its stories like these that make it very difficult for me to locate my "care"
ReplyDeleteI first read this off si.com, and when Joe mentioned his commenters, I nodded in agreement. I completely forgot that I wasn't on his real blog, and scrolled into the comments ... and was unpleasantly reminded of the fact that it was on si.com.
ReplyDeleteJust more evidence in favor of John Gabriel's theory, linked above by Scoops (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/3/19/ if you missed it).
I wonder if Mr. Badref is in some way connected to the many angry-political folks out there who similarly find fault with everything Obama (now) or Bush (then) does.
ReplyDeleteOr the people who feel that Peter King hates every team b/c, at some point, he's written something critical about them.
I sincerely wish Joe had approached that fan -- even without a coherent response, it would have made for an interesting column.
I had managed to hear nothing about this until reading this post. Well written, as always.
ReplyDeleteThere are a couple other baseball sites on which I read the comments and sometimes add my own, but anything more serious than baseball brings out too much of the worst in too many people for me to stomach. As has already been pointed out, reading the comments on a Yahoo article can be incredibly depressing.
I think many people who read this blog feel that thoughtful response is the least we can do in exchange for all the wonderful writing we get from Joe for free. Thank you so much, sir.
Nothing new from me.
ReplyDeleteI read the articles here rather than at SI for the quality of the comments (and I'm in China where blogspot is blocked - so it is not a trivial effort to do this).
Access to the locker room - everyone or no one. Don't really care either way. Do care if it access is discriminatory based on accidents of birth.
Tiger (and other wealthy high profile players) could recover his image by refusing to play Augusta until they civilize themselves. Treat it like South Africa of old.
Agree with Mikey above, one way or another, big or small, you're implicitly supporting Augusta if you play there, report on it, sponsor it, attend it, watch it. There is a line and you your actions put you on one side or the other. If you don't care then no worries, enjoy yourself. If you do care then see that your actions support your care. For me - Augusta is so far out of my universe of interests that I have to say that I don't care.
Joe: Your little corner of the internet is the best little corner of the internet.
ReplyDeleteIf anyone knows of a more important freedom than freedom of speech, let me know. It is the cornerstone of democracy; it is the freedom from which all other freedoms flow.
ReplyDeleteIt is so recent a phenomenon in human history and its foothold so shaky that only a fraction of the world's current population has it and that fraction has to fight a constant battle to keep it.
Which leads to this: If you want freedom of speech then there has to be freedom of speech for all. It cannot be the preserve of the thoughtful and articulate any more than it can be the preserve of the rich and powerful. Any successful stifling of the rantings of fools would be followed by the stifling of the merely annoying and lead ultimately to the silencing of those whom the paymasters of the arbiters don't want heard.
I have no problem at all with Shortbusdriver. He had an opinion, he had a forum, he expressed his opinion.
— Graphite
Graphite, I respectfully submit that I think the only one here who wanted to shut down discussion was Shortbusdriver. Maybe I missed a comment here from someone, but I think everyone decried the lack of civility. I don't think anyone called for an end to anonymous posting everywhere (or even anywhere).
ReplyDeleteI have read that when sites decide to run their comment features through Facebook, the incivility of the comments does in fact fall. However, it may tip too much in the opposite direction--vigorous dissent also falls. Which I think goes to show that Graphite has a very strong point.
"I have no problem at all with Shortbusdriver. He had an opinion, he had a forum, he expressed his opinion."
ReplyDeleteI really dislike this form of argument. Of course shortbus and others of his ilk have the right to speak - no one is talking about his right to spew stupidity. But with freedom of speech comes the concomitant right of others to critique your speech.
Also, internet comment boxes are not publicly regulated forums. Throwing some roadblocks (via moderation, registration, etc.) has nothing to do with the First Amendment.
I'm not entirely sure that anonymity is the sole reason for the seeming lack of good nature and politeness in many media web pages' comments. I think it's really the lack of a sense of community that's the issue. I post under a pseudonym (the same one plus or minus one letter) on any account online, and would like to think that I don't viciously berate other people. For example, the SBNation blogs have users and sometimes authors who post under pseudonyms, but the comments there are pretty devoid of trolls, without a need for too much serious moderation. Take McCovey Chronicles, a SF Giants blog I frequent. The folks there are vulgar and loud, but the sense of community among the posters there almost always prevents folks from degenerating into the type of stuff you see on Yahoo! News articles.
ReplyDeleteAnother awesome read. Thanks Joe. I can't read comments sections anymore. Too discouraging. For a long while, kept telling myself it was the same kook writing all these kooky comments on all these different websites. The sheer math, sadly, disproved this.
ReplyDeleteAnyway I loved the description of Mcilroy ... "human and defiant". Just watching him finish the last 8 holes yesterday was a refreshing testament to what is good about us.
"If you want freedom of speech then there has to be freedom of speech for all....I have no problem at all with Shortbusdriver. He had an opinion, he had a forum, he expressed his opinion."
ReplyDeleteThis is a total non-sequitur. Just because you have the right to say vile and hateful things doesn't mean you should.
The justification for freedom of speech is that good ideas defeat bad ideas--in the marketplace of ideas, good ideas win. Shortbusdriver has the right to state his opinions. But those of us that disagree with him should state our objections to his speech with all the vigor and eloquence that we can muster. If we don't want people spouting idiocy in our communities (real and virtual) we should tell them so. And hopefully, through the merit of our ideas, incivility will decrease and public discourse will become more civil.
Joe, I commend you for standing up for civil discourse. You and your cite set an example for others to follow.
Reading this blog almost feels like having a really smart and funny friend tell me a story over drinks. As great of a writer as Joe is, the intimacy here really sets it apart from his other (still fantastic) writing.
ReplyDeleteThis is about the only blog where I take the trouble to read the comments. Most of them are civil, and many are entertaining and/or informative.
ReplyDeleteHas anyone considered that the locker room fiasco might have been because the security guard was a jackwagon?
I'm not suggesting that Augusta does not have sexist and racist policies, because those are well publicized. Most security guards do a fine, thankless job, but there is a small percentage that are in that field simply to push people around a little, and feel like they are in charge.
As for angry commenters, years of doing jobs where I work with the public have convinced me that some people are constantly angry. Their rage defines them. I don't understand it. It must actually take hard work to be a jerk that constantly.
It is also easier to do it over a computer. I am sure those of you that work in an office environment have had people say things in Email or instant message that they would never say in person -evenm though you know who they are.
"My point in this post is not the sexist policies of the Augusta National ... I'm pretty sure there will be no movement in how people feel about those. But I should pause for a moment to say that "misunderstanding," seems the wrong word choice here. Restrictive clubs do not have misunderstandings."
ReplyDeleteI know this is the comments section and that you don't read this, Joe, but if this was more than a misunderstanding and more or less a policy as you're suggesting, how come Sullivan didn't complain about this earlier in the week? Or how come other women didn't come out and gripe about it? Was she the only woman there?
I'm fine with you not liking what happened. You're entitled to being upset about how your friend was treated on deadline. But I'm not fine with journalists creating a conspiracy out of a poorly trained security guard. If women were being denied access all week, we would've heard about it. Or by now we would've at least heard another story. But we haven't. It was a misunderstanding and you have to let it go as such. I'm sure it's happened to you as it's happened to me and many other male journalists by misinformed or poorly trained security guards.
The fact that it happened at Augusta National on deadline to a woman doesn't suddenly turn a misunderstanding into a newsworthy event.
As journalists, we all need to watch our tweets as they are unedited or lacking context. Ms. Sullivan doesn't sound like a whiner in her tone, but her tweet positioned her as such as the cable news cycle will always press to create a controversy out of something that's not there.
@Paul Zummo & Hartzdog
ReplyDeleteWhere, in anything I have written here, did I say that Shortbusdriver was immune from criticism?
If you want to call him out, go for your life. Or do what most people would do and ignore him. Either way, you are exercising freedom of speech.
— Graphite
(Also, I see that I'm Joseph again. Strange.)
Living outside the USA, what amazes me is that American journalists are allowed to follow athletes into locker rooms or shower areas. Are adult journalists allowed into locker rooms after college games? How about high school games? It sounds slightly creepy...
ReplyDeleteI suspect that female journalists will only achieve equality in this area when all locker-room access is banned...but it will be a brave/foolish journalist who argues for that.
Am I to assume that she was denied access the entire week, or was this really a mistake made by one security person? And as a result has used this to comment on the membership practices of Augusta National, who will not change no matter how much foot stomping goes on. So, was she denied access all week? I think not. Give it up.
ReplyDeleteThanks for writing this. You've got a new fan.
ReplyDelete@ Graphite,
ReplyDeleteA couple of the subsequent commenters have touched on this, but your invocation of the "free speech" argument is really a red herring.
Free speech refers only to the government's ability to regulate the speech of its citizens. As such, it's only tangentially related (at best) to this discussion. Nobody has suggested that the government should do anything to prevent shortbusdriver and his ilk from posting their comments.
We're talking about the ability of commenters, blogs and the interwebs in general to be self-policing, and, in a larger sense, for people to be civil to one another. The concept of free speech as a recent phenomenon in human history doesn't really have anything to do with that.
It is perfectly fine to bar female reporters from male locker rooms and only allow them in at specific times, after the athletes have dressed and showered.
ReplyDeleteThe people that say male reporters are allowed into women's locker rooms are lying by omission.
Currently, female reporters are allowed to barge in at any time, even when the athletes are showering / changing.
Male reporters are not allowed to do the same, and may only enter at specific times.
Part of the WNBA media guidelines are as follows: “The room (locker room) will re-open 5 to 10 minutes after the final buzzer and will remain open for a minimum of 30 minutes. Following the 30-minute media access period, locker rooms will be closed for a 20-30 minute period to allow players to shower and dress. The locker rooms may then again be opened to the media.”
@ Celestian...I think your argument misses the point a little bit. Unless I misread something, after that 5-10 minute period, the WNBA closes the locker room to all reporters, not just the men. In other words, the WNBA treats male and female reporters exactly equally. So there are no female WNBA reporters that are able to do their job better for having access to players at times when male reporters don't.
ReplyDeleteCertainly, the other leagues could do the same thing (i.e., let all the reporters in or keep all the reporters out).
@AngryYoungMan
ReplyDeleteYou are correct that men and women reporters are treated equally by the WNBA.
But that's not my argument.
My argument is, the male pro sports organizations (NFL, NBA) treat reporters differently than the women's pro sports organizations (WNBA).
Female reporters are allowed to come in and gawk at naked male athletes. Male reporters are not allowed to come in and gawk at naked female athletes.
There is a serious problem and inequality with those two facts. Either both are ok, or neither.
@ Celestian,
ReplyDeleteI understand what you're saying. But the fourth sentence of your above post would be more accurate if you wrote it as follows:
Reporters are allowed to come in and gawk at naked male athletes. Reporters are not allowed to come in and gawk at naked female athletes.
In any case, when you say there is a serious problem and inequality, either both or ok are neither...I think you're making a different argument than what is really being discussed here.
The point here is that each league needs to allow all reporters equal access in order to do their jobs. Let em all in, keep em all out, whatever. The choice is up to the leagues.
There's no legal or ethical reason why MLB or the NHL should treat its reporters the same way the WNBA does.
You're talking about "ok" in some larger social or moral context. That is, society views it as ok to be more protective of the physical privacy of female athletes than male athletes. I think you're saying there's a certain hypocrisy in that, and that's true to an extent, but is also just a reflection of the reality of the differences between men and women. Is it really any different than men being allowed to walk around shirtless while women are not?
The office building I am in right now has a keypad lock on the women's bathroom on the 3rd floor. There is no lock on the men's bathroom adjacent to it. Is that hypocrisy or just a concession to reality?
@Celestian..Why do you and other frightened folks have in your belief system that women sports reporters want to come into the locker rooms of male sports teams to "gawk" at naked men?
ReplyDeleteThis seems to be the crux of the matter for so many defending discriminatory practices against female sports reporters.
I am 56 years old and a happily married female sports writer. I do not do player interviews in the locker room after games in order to gawk.
I do player interviews in the locker room to get candid and immediate reactions to the game just played in order to write an intelligent comprehensive article for my publication on deadline.
If these male athletes chose to be naked in the locker room while I am in there (that actually very seldom happens) then it is their choice. It has nothing to do with me or my purpose in being there.
Agreed, Joe. This is the only place I ever comment & it's because of the community that you've created with your kind & thoughtful writing. Keep it up!
ReplyDeleteI'll preface this by saying that I'm generally appalled by the lack of civility in the online comments sections of most mainstream media publications. What you find there tends to be horrible horrible stuff.
ReplyDeleteBut I actually find the fact that Mike Lupica won't allow comments in his NY Post column to be a failing on his part, not that of the crowd.
His entire schtick these days (and I hear he used to be a marvelous writer) seems to revolve around being "provocative" and having a "point of view". Which is fine. But if you are going to play that role in today's world you should also be willing to take part in the conversation.
One man's opinion.
@AngryYoungMan
ReplyDeleteYes, that would be more accurate. I agree that male and female reporters should be treated equally.
But it doesn't take away from my point, which is that male athletes should be treated with the same respect and have the same rights as female athletes.
You say there is no legal or ethical reason the NHL should treat its reporters the same way the NBA does.
I couldn't disagree more. The issue at hand is not the rights of the reporters, but the rights of the athletes. If female athletes have the right to shower and change in peace, there is no reason why the male athletes should not have that same right.
You say that the MLB or NHL should have the right to disallow their (male) athletes this right, I can see no justification for that.
@Terry
So do you agree that female athletes should, as they currently do, have the right to change and shower without fear that reporters will be present?
If you disagree, then we should allow male (and female) reporters into women's locker rooms at all times, and if they happen to see the female athletes naked, let no one complain about that.
If you agree, then why should male athletes not have that same right?
"You say there is no legal or ethical reason the NHL should treat its reporters the same way the NBA does."
ReplyDelete"NBA" should say "WNBA".
Why is the link to this article down at SI? It doesn't show on your archive page anymore.
ReplyDelete"I feel lucky that we have our own little corner of the Internet." I feel really lucky too Joe. I Thank you for your writing.
ReplyDelete@Celestian I do agree that their should be no discriminatory regulations for either male or female athletes regarding locker access by reporters. If male journalists are allowed in the mens locker rooms then women reporters should also be allowed at that same time.
ReplyDeleteIt sounds like WNBA allows men and women reporters in the locker rooms at the SAME time, regardless of the possible state of undress.
Male or female reporters are not allowed in the locker rooms at all times as you suggest. In fact my experience has been that there is a specified time frame where journalists are allowed in the locker room. If the atheletes either male or female chose to undress and shower at that time so be it.
@Celestian...I did mean to say WNBA. But my point works equally well with NBA. The point is the NHL has no obligation to treat its players and reporters the same way another league does.
ReplyDeleteBut when you say male athletes have the same "right" to shower and change in peace that female athletes do...is "right" really the correct term? I don't think you're suggesting this is something the government should guarantee to male athletes. And if it's not from the government, from where else does this right come?
We're just talking about athletes' voluntary participation in leagues that pay them millions of dollars (or thousands in the case of the WNBA). If the male athletes in any league think that the WNBA players have it better vis-a-vis showering and changing in peace, and it's important enough to them, they can easily collectively bargain with their leagues for the right to keep the locker room closed for 30 minutes after the game (or whatever).
@AngryYoungMan
ReplyDeleteI take your point. I'll also 'fess up to laying it on with a trowel.
But it's hypocritical if, in our private capacities, we deny to people freedoms that we assume to be our rights as citizens.
— Graphite
If you ever wanted to know the answer to the question "If you could murder someone and get away with it with no consequences and nobody to know you did it, would you?", look at comments on the internet.
ReplyDelete@angryyoungman
ReplyDeleteI'd say the right comes from basic human decency.
Women are given a specific period where reporters are banned so they can shower and change. That's a fact.
Men do not enjoy that same right. That is a fact.
Should they? I can see no reason why they should not.
Your opinion that male athletes should have to bargain in order to be able to shower and change without reporters (male or female) present.
My opinion is that this should be a basic human right, the right to shower and change clothes without having reporters, especially reporters of the opposite sex, look at you while you are doing it.
@ Celestian
ReplyDeleteWell now I think we've gone off the rails. I don't think the privacy of millionaires in their locker rooms immediately after the games that they have just played to earn those millions falls within the realm of basic human rights.
But even if it did, how do you propose this right be secured? Are you saying the government should pass laws to prevent reporters from going into the locker rooms of the millionaires? And if that's not what you're saying, then what? Are you just saying that the the various leagues have some sort of moral obligation to afford their players that sort of privacy? And if THAT'S all you're saying, well, ok, but the leagues often fail to fulfill their moral obligations.
"If you genuinely believe that there should never be locker room interviews, more power to you. I think you'll find it a lonely position, though, and I think if you had your way it would make sports journalism surprisingly lifeless. "
ReplyDeleteLifeless because we'd no longer have vapid, cliche-filled quotes from athletes immediately after the game? Yea, you know what, count me in for that...
"Well now I think we've gone off the rails. I don't think the privacy of millionaires in their locker rooms immediately after the games that they have just played to earn those millions falls within the realm of basic human rights."
ReplyDeleteSo it makes a difference if they're millionaires or not? Does the career minor leaguer who was called up to fill out the roster and is only making the league minimum qualify for your basic human rights, or does he make too much money? What about the obnoxiously rich lawyer who works out at Gold's Gym immediately after winning a case that earned him millions of dollars - does he deserve privacy in the locker room, or no, because he's also a millionaire?
It's news to me that "basic human rights" means "basic human rights unless you make a s###-ton of money"
you're missing the point of what Celestian is saying. He's critizising the claim the showering in privacy is a BASIC human right.
ReplyDeleteBASIC human rights are are, well, more basic. The right not to be killed - that sort of stuff.
@ Ashley...actually that's what I'm saying. Celestian is the one saying it is a basic human right.
ReplyDelete@ Christopher...the career minor leaguer "only" making the league minimum is making $414,500 this year. That salary puts even the duffers among the wealthiest 1 or 2% of the population.
And yes money is relevant because this is all voluntary. That's why the concept of "rights" doesn't apply, let alone "basic human rights." The players choose to play. Even the worst paid among them get paid a lot of money to do so. Part of the tradeoff for that is putting up with the demands of their private employers. And if their private employers want the press to have full locker room access so be it.
The people who run Augusta National Golf Club are bigots, and they're proud of it. The problem is golf fans and journalists who continue to treat it like it's scared ground. All of you are enablers, and all of you are partly responsible for what happened.
ReplyDelete@AngryYoungMan
ReplyDeleteYour position is that male athletes should accept the fact that reporters are allowed to be in their locker rooms while they are changing and showering. The reason is that they are highly paid and voluntarily work as athletes.
My position is that male athletes should have the same right as female athletes to shower and change without fear of reporters being in the locker room. Salary is irrelevant, and choosing to work in a place where injustice occurs is also not an excuse for that injustice.
So there is no point in continuing the discussion, we have different positions and that's that.
The so-called mystique of the Masters is almost totally a media-created and -nurtured concept. Why is the Master's a "major" and the tournament two weeks later or three months later just a run-of-the-mill tournament? Tradition? maybe. Difficulty of the course? I don't know, but I imagine there are thousands of courses that have been designed in the last 75 years that provide a challenging test for top-level golfers. The whole thing seems to be an Emperor-Has-No-Clothes situation, but the media and the golfers and, I guess, green sports jacket tailors are all in on the ruse. It's too late now because his reputation is crap, but if Tiger Woods had refused to go along with the Augusta-is-holy-ground, something might have changed. Or if big-time sportswriters like Joe P., who writes on his blog that the whole Augusta thing is disgusting and he doesn't want his daughters to belong to such an awful club, would stop going along with this situation,maybe it would change.
ReplyDelete@Celestian...clearly we have different positions, although I haven't even asserted my actual position. I've mostly just been playing devil's advocate because I don't think your position holds up. But if you wouldn't mind answering one more question (and then we can agree to drop the subject), how is it that you believe this right, as you call it, should be enforced/protected/safeguarded? Do you think a law should be passed? Should the players just refuse to talk to reporters in the locker rooms in the hopes that eventually the reporters will go away when they're not getting anymore quotes? What is it that you think should be done?
ReplyDeleteWow. A lot to comment on for this one. First off, I love this blog for 2 reasons. 1. Duh, Joe's great writing. 2. My fellow comment leaving peers are really generally friendly, educated, civil and fun making this a great read and the only blog I check daily.
ReplyDeleteMost "normal" people have been willing to put up with Augusta National's behind the times(although legal and their right)policies for ever because of the tradition of the Master's. By the way, it is wholly unfair to criticize golf fans(I only watch the majors myself)and the general sport fan who watches the Master's, for supporting the club and tournament. This is the same logic as "don't watch the BCS games and the BCS will go away". Fine, maybe. But that is not practical. Most people(except folks like Joe's yeller at the NCAA tourney game, who is a sad man indeed)watch sports in part to let go and forget and relax. It is NOT the responsibility of sports fans to make political or moral statements through their viewership or lack thereof.
@Harwood. I see your point but in a general way you can make a case against all sports in that way. For instance, what is the mystique in any sport really? For most of us they are all mostly TV shows or an event we attend once in a while. When your team wins the championship, what does it mean in your life, really. You buy a hat a t-shirt and a special dvd. The next day, bills are due and you go back to work. But what's the fun in that? Creating mystique is what sports is about. It is a fun play land that we can lose ourselves in, that has much less real impact in our personal lives than most will admit.
Finally, the debate on males in female locker rooms vs females in men's locker rooms leaves out some basic differences in the sexes. There is so many pages of comments I could make to debate my point here but I don't have the time, nor the desire and plus I was late to this party so I am not sure if anyone will read this anyway. So, I will simply throw out a question:
If you polled all male pro athletes and asked them if they minded being seen naked by a pro reporter who happened to be female who was only there to do her job, what percentage do you think would care about the fact they would be naked? %5 percent? 10? I would be shocked if it was much higher.
Now, poll all pro women athletes the same question. Bet it would be much, much higher.
Men and women view their bodies and sexuality different. It is not as open and shut an issue as some would make it seem.
Just my two cents.
Finally(part deux)I love Kansas City and can't was to have a 2nd home there one day. Some of the nicest most genuine people I have ever been around. I would be willing to bet a good number of followers of this blog are KCers. However, the comments after Star articles are some of the most brutal and arrogant comments anywhere. Hard to believe.
Obviously for my hypothetical poll question you would change female for male reporter on the female question. I am tired.
ReplyDelete@AngryYoungMan
ReplyDelete"although I haven't even asserted my actual position."
Really? So statements like this:
"There's no legal or ethical reason why MLB or the NHL should treat its reporters the same way the WNBA does."
is not asserting your position?
"how is it that you believe this right, as you call it, should be enforced/protected/safeguarded?"
Simple, the NBA / NHL etc. should pass a rule tomorrow saying "reporters can come in to locker rooms, after the designated period where the athletes can first shower and change."
Problem solved instantly.
"Men and women view their bodies and sexuality different. It is not as open and shut an issue as some would make it seem."
Great! Sounds good to me.
So, men who sleep with lots of women are studs, right? And women who sleep with lots of men are sluts, obviously.
It's not a double standard, since men and women view their sexuality differently.
Late to the party here, but as a blogger and high school football referee, I can tell you why officials and writers are attacked by people, methinks (see what I did there, Joe?).
ReplyDeleteIt's the removal of the human element. If you are destroying someone on the internet, you aren't really doing so to their face. If you're screaming at an official all game, he either A) can't hear you; or B) will never acknowledge your existence.
For example, I have never, ever met a fan in the parking lot after a game I officiated and heard a negative word. It could be a fan of the losing team and they'll either completely ignore you or say you did a good job. Yet during the game, they were probably cursing you with the rest of the crowd -- because heaven forbid the team get beat through a fault of their own.
Just my two cents.
@Celestian Your oversimplified conclusion that all athletes should be given enough time to shower and change after the games before media is allowed in the locker room indicates to me that you are not a member of the press or have never had to get an article done on a deadline.
ReplyDeleteMost sporting events are evening affairs and require writers/reporters to turn in finished, articulate, stories in a timely manner for morning publication. That can frequently leave a very small window of time to get the job done.
In this day of instant communications it is even more important to gather the quotes and information to disseminate quickly to your audience.
If I were to wait a 30 to 45 minutes for players to have their injuries attended to and shower and dress before interviews I would regularly miss deadlines for publication and would be out of a job.
Expanding on Terry's comments . . .
ReplyDeleteOf the quotes gathered in these locker-room interviews, maybe one in 5000 – OK, I'll be generous, one in 2000 – is anything more than a banal, cliched response to a banal, cliched question.
The reason quotes are required is not to add anything to the story . . . they are included to prove that the reporter was there.
The person best-placed to see how the action unfolded is the reporter in the press box. The person worst-placed to see how the action unfolded is the athlete in the middle. He's just doing his job and very rarely gets more than a glimpse of the over-all picture.
(Golf can be excluded to a large degree as each competitor is, in reality, playing his own individual game . . . as Ben Hogan said, "I just play against Old Man Par.")
Also, the worst time to discuss anything (and that's pretty much anything in life) is immediately after it's happened. The best time to get thoughtful, intelligent analysis is hours, preferably days, after the event.
The immediate-post-game interview is a farce and most sports followers over the age of twelve know it.
— Graphite
@ celestian:
ReplyDelete"Simple, the NBA / NHL etc. should pass a rule tomorrow saying "reporters can come in to locker rooms, after the designated period where the athletes can first shower and change."
Problem solved instantly."
But that just begs the question...WHY should the leagues pass such a rule? They should just voluntarily do it because they should treat the players better? What's to make the leagues pass such a rule? You're not saying the players should demand it or the government should require it?
@AngryYoungMan
ReplyDeleteI've agreed with most of your stuff . . . but it ain't "begs the question", it's "raises the question".
After prolonged discussions on this site, I thought we'd put that baby to bed.
— Graphite (wearing my grammar pedant's hat)
I especially loved the part about not WANTING your daughters to be members of Augusta National, even if they could be.
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone have a link to that Kansas City Star article Joe referred to?
ReplyDelete@ graphite...I'm something of a grammar pedant myself, but I don't agree with that particular grammatical nitpick. I think "begs" is roughly synonymous with "raises" in that context, and properly so.
ReplyDeleteTo believe that female reporters should be allowed in a male locker room is the epitome of feminist hypocrisy.
ReplyDeleteThe Feminist Movement is ultimately about gaining power and control over men. And the fact that females are now allowed into a male locker room when the men are naked or semi-naked reveals just how successful that agenda has become. It is successful to the point that any male athlete that dares speak out against this blantant invasion of his basic human rights to privacy, respect, and dignity is immediately slapped down by intimidation and threats of the loss of his job and income by feminists, feminist organizations, and those who have been brainwashed into believing it is clothed female reporters that experience sexual harrassment in a male locker room rather than the athlete.
I addressed this issue in detail in a 4-part article posted on The Cypress Times (http://www.thecypresstimes.com/ColumnistSection/Columnists/Terry_L_Brown/498). It explains why the arguments feminists use to rob male athletes of their basic human rights are flawed and hypocritical.
If feminists and female reporters were truly interested in equal rights they would insist that the sports organizations forbide all reporters - male and female - from being allowed in the locker room. Rather, a room would be specifically set aside for the purpose of interviewing the athletes after they are dressed. But they don't. They insist on bullying their way into the locker room in the name of equality.
It seems the idea of equality for feminists is the subjugation of men.
@Terry_L_Brown
ReplyDeleteWow. Just... wow. The degree to which you are willfully misinformed is impressive. If
"the idea of equality for feminists is the subjugation of men"
as you so eloquently put it, then I must be one hell of a self-loathing man. We of the Poziverse would appreciate it if you would take your agenda elsewhere.
Eric,
ReplyDeletePlease enlighten me as to where I am misinformed.
Male athletes are subjected to legalized sexual harassment every time a female enters into their locker rooms. This “right” was foisted upon them by a federal judge years ago. Since then any male athlete that has spoken out against being stripped of his basic right to privacy has been intimidated, mocked, and ridiculed by feminists and their advocates. Lance Briggs is the latest example.
After the Inez Sainz story he made the comment: "I don't think women should be in the locker room. The locker room is the place where us guys, us football players, we dress, we shower, we're naked, we're walking around and we're bombarded by media. A lot of times I'm asking the media to wait until I'm dressed." As a result of he and others speaking out about females in a male locker room, the Association for Women in Sports Media (AWSM) was invited by the NFL to conduct a re-education camp for the players to ensure they were properly indoctrinated – again – with the feminist belief that fully clothed females being in the presence of naked or semi-naked male athletes was perfectly normal and morally acceptable. Seriously? Try switching the genders on this issue and see if that argument convinces anyone of its legitimacy.
As to an agenda, if speaking the truth, regardless of the backlash or the political incorrectness it raises, so be it.
Terry L. Brown, why not just close the locker room to all media members, and have an interview area somewhere else? Or give them 20-30 minutes and then open it up? I'm a sports fan, and I don't think those locker room quotes are indispensable. We can wait for our cliches.
ReplyDeleteThe point is that we want to treat male and female reporters equally.
Besides, some male members of the media might be gay. Then *they* might be ogling the players, too, you know.
@clashfan,
ReplyDeleteI agree 100% with your solution to the issue of females in a male locker room. In fact, this is the solution I purposed in the series of articles I wrote for The Cypress Times (http://www.thecypresstimes.com/ColumnistSection/Columnists/Terry_L_Brown/498). It can also it accessed in full at http://www.jonathanhoodshow.com/?p=4863.
The article lists some of the arguments used to justify the presence of females in a male locker room and exposes the fallacy behind each. You may find it interesting.
@ Terry Brown; I'm not going to create traffic on a website some random person on the internet tips me to.
ReplyDeleteIf you really care about how male athletes are treated--not having the opportunity to shower and dress without being bothered by the press--then say that. If your concern is that male athletes do not get the same courtesy as female athletes do, then say that.
Claiming that teh feminists are out to oppress men isn't going to win you any fans here. Using the same terminology to describe the AWSM as one would use to describe North Korea is disingenuous at best.
If any athletes are that concerned about it, they can ask their union to take up the issue at the next CBA discussion. If it's such a huge, impossible burden for them, there are avenues to make a change. Neither you nor I have much say in it.
Clashfan,
ReplyDeletePlease forgive me if I have offended you.
What I care about is that all human beings have their basic human rights of privacy, dignity, and respect honored. The issue of females being allowed in a male locker room when they are in various stages of undress or completely nude in the name of equality unnecessarily violates those basic human rights given the solution is as simple as you suggested. If the genders in this issue were reversed there would be an outcry from women (rightfully so!) of females being exploited by men.
Concerning the AWSM: any organization that has the power to force someone else to bend to their way of thinking, regardless of the morality of it, on pain of possibly losing their livelihood, is engaging in a form of re-education.
You said that if any athletes are concerned about this they can take it up with their unions. Actually, some of them are concerned about it. Lance Briggs and Clinton Portis are two recent examples. But when they voiced their opposition to females in their locker rooms they were quickly silenced.
Also, I understand your reluctance to access the website article I sited because you don’t know me. It is due to the limited nature of a blog to fully or adequate explain one’s position that I suggested it.
Terry Brown, you yourself said the AWSM was *invited* by the league to speak to players. They do NOT have the power to control people's thoughts. They're not hypnotizing players; they're not playing tapes under their bunks in training camp. My guess is that the seminars mostly consist of, "Hey look, we're not shopping for dates. We're trying to get the story, just like the dudes are."
ReplyDeleteWhere Briggs and Portis went astray was making their remarks to the media. They should have taken it to their union reps. If they really want things changed, they have to make it part of the CBA. Hey, look! They're re-negotiating the CBA right now! If the players really care about reporters in the locker room, that's the avenue to address it. My guess is, that issue is not really high on their list.
You seem to care more about it than they do.
And I do not forgive you for using offensive terminology. You used it again; you don't really seem sorry.
Great article!~Thanks for ur sharing!~
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