Friday, April 8, 2011

The Retirement of MannyBManny

One of my favorite bits of sportswriting is how quickly we will call someone a genius. If you devise a reasonably effective defense for the three-point shot ... you're a genius. If you get your team to play two somewhat different styles in back-to-back playoff games ... you're a genius. If you manage a bullpen so that you generally have your best pitchers throw when the game is close ... you're a genius. And so on.



I know this. I am among the worst offenders. In my first Poscast with Michael Schur, I found myself -- in one of those moments of desperate hyperbole -- trying to once again express my admiration for Ron Gardenhire. Yep, I called him "a genius." Ron Gardenhire. A genius. That is so ridiculous -- Gardy is a genius in the same way that I'm silent film star Buster Keaton -- that I feel like I should have to write "Ron Gardenhire ain't no genius" on a chalkboard 500 times*.

*Even if that double negative actually translates to mean that he IS a genius ... which would force me to write 500 more times "No way, Gardenhire is not a genius," but I'd forget to put that comma in there so it would read "No way Gardenhire is not a genius," and we'd have a double negative again and I'd spend all month trying to make up for calling Gardy a genius, which would be a fitting punishment for saying something that ludicrous.

Point is, yes, I do realize that we in sportswriting and sports broadcasting set the genius bar pretty low for coaches and athletes. The only people who set it lower are the people at Apple, who essentially take a bunch of ordinary people, have them take two Macbook Pro classes and one on the iPhone, and then immediately graduate them to geniuses. These geniuses even get their own bars.

But I still maintain that Manny Ramirez was a hitting genius.

I wrote this once before, and I continue to admit it's a bizarre notion. But what is a genius anyway? The dictionary definition is "a person who is exceptionally intelligent or creative, either generally or in some particular respect." MannyBManny is clearly not a generalist. The man has been ticketed for having the windows on his car tinted too dark. He has wandered to the outfield with a water bottle in his back pocket. In an era when nobody -- and I mean NOBODY -- with even two milliliters of sense would test positive for steroids, he apparently has now tested positive TWICE, the second time sparking his sudden and forced and merciful retirement from the game on Friday.

But in one particular respect ... I never saw anybody hit a baseball quite like Manny Ramirez. You can -- and I often do -- a lot of crazy things with numbers. But do you know how many men in baseball history have hit .310 with 525 homers and 525 doubles? Of course you do. One. M-A-N-N-Y. He also hit 21 grand slams -- only Lou Gehrig hit more. Yes, those numbers are skewed to single him out, but I'll tell you one thing that those numbers do suggest: It's possible that nobody ever hit more balls HARD than Manuel Aristides (Onelcida) Ramirez.

And he hit the ball that hard without even the slightest outward suggestion of anything resembling discipline or exertion or dedication. People may not have liked Barry Bonds but nobody could doubt the commitment he made to being a sensational baseball player. MannyBManny hardly seemed to care at all. I can only assume he DID care, and that he DID work hard on his hitting -- it doesn't seem even remotely possible that anyone could become that good at anything without extreme drive -- but, yeah, he did an amazing job hiding that part of himself from the world. He cared so little that the main defense his fans had against the likelihood he was using steroids was that using steroids would take too much effort. He cared so little that at one point when he was still hitting rockets all over the park, the Red Sox put him on waivers. It was a bit like putting Alexander the Great on waivers just after he crossed the Tigris ... only they didn't just put him on waivers, they basically PRAYED that someone would claim him. Nobody did.

Of course, the story goes that the Red Sox were forced to keep him ... and he led the league in slugging in 2004 and was named World Series MVP. In 2007, the Red Sox -- with Manny playing a somewhat less prominent role -- won the World Series again. In fact, Manny Ramirez's teams always won. I looked this up once before in 2009 -- at that time Manny Ramirez had never once played for a losing team in his 15 full seasons. His teams had made the playoffs 10 times and the World Series four times. He may have been a terrible teammate. He may have been an atrocious left fielder. He may have been the biggest pain this side of kidney stones. But the man hit baseballs hard. And because of him or despite him or both, his teams won.

In my own romantic view of baseball and the world, I tended to see Manny as baseball's Mozart -- an often vile personality who did one thing so beautifully that you could not turn away. He finished top five in batting average five times, top five in on-base percentage five times, top five in slugging 10 times. He faced Dennis Eckersley three times ... he walked once and hit two home runs off him. He hit .643 against CC Sabathia. Here's one that will blow your mind -- there are 27 men out there who have had only one at-bat match-up with MannyBManny ... and they will always be able to tell people that Manny hit a home run in that one at-bat.

When I wrote the Manny-is-a-genius piece, I talked to a few people in the game ... and it was clear that these tough old baseball men who had no respect at all for the way Ramirez treated the game were almost absurdly awed by his talent. They talked of games he would play with pitchers during spring training to set them up later in the year. They talked of adjustments he would make pitch-to-pitch that were so remarkable they could only compare it to chess grandmasters. Bill James -- co-host of the next Poscast, coming out Monday -- insisted that Manny Ramirez would purposely get into 3-2 counts with a runner on first so that the runner would be on the move with the pitch and could then score on the double MannyBManny planned to hit.

I think "genius" -- at least the way it has come to be understood -- needs a bit of mystery. We can't understand, most of us, understand how Einstein could have conceived of a whole new kind of universe or how Shakespeare could have written Othello, King Lear and Macbeth in a rush of two years or how the Beatles could have recorded Sgt. Pepper's, Yellow Submarine and Abbey Road back-to-back-to-back. There is no mystery in Albert Pujols' ability to hit a baseball. He works harder at it than anyone. He has a singular focus that obliterates all distractions. He has a deep faith, and he has a giant chip on his shoulder, and these things drive him to hit baseballs like almost no one in baseball history. It's remarkable. But it's not mysterious.

Same goes with Larry Bird -- the mystery was not how he played such glorious basketball but what kept him out there on the courts, for hour after hour after hour after deathly hour, perfecting his shot, devising his moves, developing a sense of the game that could seem (if you did not know his work ethic) supernatural.

But Manny -- I don't know how he did it. Some will say he did it with steroids, but that seems a copout to me ... I suspect a whole lot more players than anyone will ever admit used steroids. How many of them hit baseballs like Manny Ramirez?

Now, with him retired, the question will be asked about his Hall of Fame candidacy. I don't think it's much of a question. He has no shot ... at least not with the baseball writers. None. Two positive tests AFTER the game started testing for steroid use? No shot. I'm not saying it's right or wrong; I'm just stating the obvious. The writers, I think, were already shaky about his candidacy because of his defiantly awful defense (his minus-118 defensive runs ranks him the fifth worst outfielder in baseball history -- tied with Frank Howard), because of his defiantly bad attitude, because of his plain defiance. Two positive tests is more than enough to end any chances. I suspect there's a pretty good chance he won't even get the 5% necessary to stay on the ballot.

Will I vote for him? Well, I have five years to sort that out. I do think positive tests AFTER testing began and steroid outrage exploded is a very different thing from using steroids when no one tested and no one cared. Then again, I'm a bad example for something like this. I vote for Mark McGwire. I'd vote for Pete Rose. I believe that the Hall of Fame is for the best baseball players, the ones who thrilled us with their play, who helped their teams win, who had a spectacular peak, who compare well with the best players already in the Hall. You will probably figure out before I do how I will vote.

I saw Manny Ramirez play in a spring training game this year. He looked horribly out of shape, and looked like he cared even less than usual, and I made the observation that the Rays had obviously lost their way signing that guy, even for one year, even for a relatively small amount of money. "Nothing good can come from this," I said.

In the end, I guess I was right. But I will say this: MannyBManny came up to the plate. He looked more likely to collapse on the spot than swing the bat. But he did swing the bat. And he absolutely rocketed a single into the outfield. It was impressive. Sure, a minute later, he made a classic, "It's hot out here and I don't want to be on the bases" base-running maneuver and got himself thrown out. But he hit that line drive hard. Damn, he hit that line drive hard.

56 comments:

  1. Buster Keaton? Now there was a genius. A capital G Genius even.

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  2. Apple joke = hilarious. Mozart comparison, however, not totally apt. Look, I know how Mozart was portrayed in "Amadeus," but that's not really a fair representation. He didn't have a "vile" personality in the way that Manny does. Sure, he had a tiff with an archbishop when he was still very young, and he had a propensity for childish humor in his personal correspondence, but his public persona was not divisive and silly in the way that Manny's is. He was, instead, widely respected and honored.

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  3. "We can't understand, most of us, understand how... the Beatles could have recorded Sgt. Pepper's, Yellow Submarine and Abbey Road back-to-back-to-back."

    That's because they didn't. Beatles albums, in order they were recorded, in what is usually known as their Late Period:

    Rubber Soul
    Revolver
    Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band
    Magical Mystery Tour*
    The Beatles (aka The White Album)
    Yellow Submarine
    Let it Be**
    Abbey Road

    *Released as an album in the US, as a double-EP in the UK.
    **Released after Abbey Road.

    Plus, it is the first three on this list (not the three that you listed, Joe) that are almost universally considered their best three albums (order of "bestness" depending on the listener, though Sgt. Pepper is usually first).

    Also, too: MannyBManny is an idiot -- idiot savant, perhaps, but idiot nonetheless.

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  4. Jesus, I feared him. The dope. But I always kind of hoped he'd come home to the Bronx. Just for a season. What a player.

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  5. Joe, you seriously don't think Manny worked hard at baseball? Really? There are all these stories about how he would get off the plane and head straight to the weight room or about how he would spent hours upon hours in the hitting cage. Everything you wrote about Albert applies to Manny, at least on the offensive side of the game.

    He was as confusing a player as I've ever rooted for. On the one hand, his hitting prowess was nuanced and sophisticated. It had all the bearings of a professional, smart hitter: he went the other way, up the middle, he worked counts and took his walks, he didn't come out of his shoes in RBI situations but stayed within him, he would let it rip when he got his pitch. But people thought he was stupid and didn't think at the plate. That dichotomy and the unfairness of it made me love him more. At the same time though, my love for him was never as deep and passionate as it was for Pedro, who was as much an auteur at the game as Manny was but had the dazzling personality and eloquence to top off his legend. Sometimes it appeared as though Manny played the game autistically and my rooting for him was that way as well.

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  6. I read somewhere that Manny once told a cop who pulled him over before a game that he didnt need a ticket because he was a player.

    I've always read/heard that he worked very hard on hitting, in an idiot savant kind of way.

    Repugnant personality, though I think Scott Boras rubbed off on him during the later years. Manny's biggest mistake was probably leaving Cleveland (he never seemed to like Boston very much).

    Nevertheless, he is one of the 25.

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  8. Like a dazzling blonde or a king's courtesan, Manny was always on winning teams because they were the only ones who could afford to put up with him.

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  9. Yellow Submarine is a particularly weird one to include since it wasn't a new album--many of the songs (including the title track) had appeared on earlier albums. The songs that were new for YS--"Hey Bulldog," say--are hardly world-beaters (at least by Beatles standards).

    Also, David in NYC, get out of here with that "almost universally considered" nonsense. Plenty of people think Abby Road was the Beatles' best album. (I'm not one of them, but plenty do.)

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  10. "Like a dazzling blonde or a king's courtesan, Manny was always on winning teams because they were the only ones who could afford to put up with him."

    Being sexist and being wrong so often go hand in hand, and this is no exception.

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  11. Beatles = overrated. WAY overrated.

    Manny = underrated.

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  12. And Jim Norris wasn't really that bad.

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  13. "Like a dazzling blonde or a king's courtesan, Manny was always on winning teams . . ."

    Stunning imagery. Sir, you are a poet.

    — Graphite

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  14. i don't have it in me to criticize your writing, joe, but i gotta agree with the above posters and say that i've come across a WHOLE lot of anecdotal stories from teammates about manny spending an unholy amount of time in the batting cages and such - it seems to me, appearences aside, that manny worked just as hard as a pujols or a bird

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  15. Allow me to echo tomemos. Abbey Road, White Album, Let it Be, in that order. Then a gap. Then Rubber Soul and Revolver. Plenty of Beatles fans and critics feel that way.

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  16. Aha-- Im back. Its baseball season and I was determined to overcome any technological fears and perceived shortcomings to ensure that I dont miss any of the fun going on around here.

    To fellow former anonymous commenters -- Setting up this blog was extremely user friendly. I of course, have no interest in starting a blog. I might be the only idiot who started a blog just so I can comment on Joe's blog when the mood strikes me.

    But now Im feeling ambitious...figuring out how to start this thing has boosted my confidence...maybe my alter ego Elo can be a political blogger. Maybe I can say what I really think about my industry without fear of consequence...

    ...baseball season has started...the sox look awful...spring is in the air...and Im back on the Pos blog...life is good...

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  17. Anyone who thinks the later Beatles albums are better than Rubber Soul and Revolver simply should not be allowed to comment on the Beatles. Joe should be banned from commenting on the Beatles for his error in this column and for giving people a forum for displaying their bad taste in music.

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  18. OK -- I need help from Joe's brilliant readers. I found my favorite word on one of the tabs of my new blog. My favorite word is "monetize"

    If someone can help me figure out how I monetize the thing I would be extremely grateful.

    Joe...Im kidding..I swear. I can figure out how to monetize it myself. Still any input would be appreciated.

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  19. Not right to glorify a cheater or a corrupt player, Joe, whether it is Manny, Rose, McGuire, Bonds or Clemons. Learn how to write about the shame to take that credit (before getting caught) when it came with cheating or corruption, when the "do it right" players and fans were being cheated out of a fair game. Then these bozos are not even man enough to admit it when they get caught, they are liars as well as cheaters, and hopefully Bonds will go to jail for it. Longfellow glorified the massive death in Civil War too, really smart move to glorify what is ugly and disgusting.

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  20. I loved that crazy bastard.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoXUuHqPVBs&NR=1

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  21. Alot of talk about the Beatles. Today, I feel like talking.

    Who is the most talented Beatle? Its George Harrison by 20 yards. Yes, Im aware who else is in the band...but I'll prove it.

    First, look at the early videos -- while Lennon and McCartney are being the showmen they are -- George is just kinda hanging out in the background. Unusual behavior for a lead guitarist.

    Second, ask any Beatles fan to list their top 20 Beatles songs...if "Something" and/or "Here Comes the Sun" dont make the list you have a real heartless bastit in front of you.

    Reason #159 why attractive women make me wary: Harrison writes "Something." She still left him. Since humming that song is about the most romantic thing I can muster , I dont like my chances with attractive women.

    Plus, Sir Paul bullied the younger George. So did Lennon. And at the young Harrisons creative peak he didnt get to write as much as he should.

    Now...you want to talk about effortless genius? You Tube the Traveling Wilburys End of The Line. Sure its a pop corn number designed to get my money...but look at Harrisons left hand as he opens the tune. Thats effortless genius. Mannys swing is close. But not quite on that level.

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  22. I loved watching him hit. I also have a strange fondness for unapologetic goofy bastards.
    In 1994 I got Manny and Thome for $1 each in an auction fantasy league with keepers. It cost 2 extra dollars to keep a player a second year, 3 more on top of that for the third, etc. They were the cornerstones of my offense for 5 or 6 years. The Indians actually became my second favorite team for a while.

    It is too bad about the steroids, too bad about the Hall, too bad about the sad ending. Baseball is about moments and memories and stories. I will always remember Manny and I will be telling stories about him in 20 years.

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  23. Plus, Yellow Submarine didn't have much involvement from the band. Substitute The White Album for that one. And yes, Abbey Road was recorded after the sessions for Let It Be collapsed.

    Perhaps you could switch the example to Dylan's remarkable Bringing It All Back Home-Highway 61 Revisited-Blonde On Blonde trifecta, all released within a year and a half.

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  24. It's possible that nobody ever hit more balls HARD than Manuel Aristides (Onelcida) Ramirez.

    No.

    This subject has been authoritatively covered by Joe Morgan. The answer, of course, is Al Oliver:

    http://awfulannouncing.blogspot.com/2008/06/whos-ready-for-some-joe-morgan-trivia.html

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  25. Favorite anecdote about Manny was one of his teammates saying something like "most of us will go into an at-bat looking for a certain pitch, Manny will go into a *series* looking for a pitch, and when he gets it, boy..."

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  26. Dead on, excellent piece of writing. Makes sense to me.

    Manny's HOF-brilliance can be further demonstrated by throwing him into a really simple one-of-these-things-is-not-like-the-others that I did for 3 1B's who all happened to play for the Orioles, one of whom is a roid boy and wouldn't be a HOFer anyway:

    Eddie Murray
    8 top-10 MVP
    6 Top-5 MVP
    ROY
    8 AS
    1 RING
    504-.287
    66.7 WAR

    Frank Robinson
    12 AS
    9 MVP Top-10
    6 MVP Top-5
    2 MVP
    ROY
    2 RINGS
    586-.294
    107.4 WAR

    Rafael Palmeiro
    4 AS
    1 Top-5 MVP
    3 Top-10 MVP
    569-.288
    66.0 WAR

    Manny Ramirez
    ROY (2nd to Bob Hamelin)
    12 AS
    9 MVP Top-10
    4 MVP Top-5
    2 RINGS
    555-.312
    67.5 WAR

    That's one heckuva resume for Manny, and quite a weak one for Palmeiro.

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  27. As a baseball fan who spent a good chunk of the '90s in Cleveland, it was hard not to be mystified by Manny. He was as pure a hitter as I think I am ever likely to see. I think it's indisputable that he worked at it; Joe downplays this.

    But he played in the outfield like a beer league softball guy. Living in D.C. for a few years now, I had the unpleasant experience of watching Adam Dunn play OF (two seasons ago). A good friend of mine and I used to debate Dunn's fielding--atrocious, or worst ever? Manny could be part of that conversation. (He wasn't, however, Nyjer Morgan bad.)

    I think that one way to gauge Manny's work ethic is to distinguish b/w hitting, about which he truly cared, and fielding, about which . . . eh, he didn't.

    I loved Manny, and still do. (Even after those Boston years. Bleh.)

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  28. Personally, I never understood how Dylan cut Bringing it all Back Home, Highway 61 Revisited, and Blonde on Blonde back to back, in under two years. Manny was more like Rainman. Now he can stay home, watch Judge Wapner, and sell more stuff on Ebay.

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  29. bigsteveno: I see you have chosen to moralize bitterly about music rather than enjoying it. I wish you all the best with that decision.

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  30. As a Red Sox fan, my whole family will always remember Manny fondly as the Grapefruit (our nickname for him). Man could he hit, I saw him hit one out at Oakland in the playoffs in 03 on a rope (game 5). How could he be caught twice! I know the bat speed was shot but then just retire, but a lot of the great ones cannot just walk away.

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  31. bigsteveno-You seem to be very judgmental about other's tastes in music. I laugh at this, and it doesn't matter whether or not I agree with you.

    Music is like food. There is much variety, and there is something for everyone. That is the beauty of it. We all have different tastes.

    You judge others because they dare to have a different opinion, I judge you for your arrogant disdain.

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  32. When Joe says Manny "hit the ball harder than anyone" it sounds as fake as "Pam Anderson's breasts are a miracle of nature".

    Steroids increase muscle mass and have a brutal impact in strength and speed.

    If you are in doubt, go to pubmed.com and search for "Anabolics" and "sports". There are thousands of science papers with experimental evidence that show how an athlete can go a lot faster and be much stronger with the help of Steroids and other PED's.

    Of course he had a genius talent to swing a bat... bat that supernatural strength came from somewhere else.

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  33. Was at a spring training game in st. petersburg in 94....can't remember if it was the Orioles or Cardinals, but they were playing Cleveland. I was part of a group having a chat, not really fans of either team and not paying attention...then a THWACK! and the conversation came to an abrupt halt as heads turned to see who hit the ball so loudly. Indian fan sitting nearby: "That's Manny Ramirez. He's going to be good."

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  34. @Beatle comments:

    Joe is not a Beatles fan (sadly). But the rating of albums and talent is a distraction. The point is that what's Genius is over a period of 6 or 7 years to create the most extraordinary musical catalog. Ever. A real Beatles fan will allow his favorite album to wander and move, for years believing it is the White Albums expansive serendipitious brilliance, for years believing it is the musical perfection that is Revolver, or then somedays the pop music mastery that Rubber Soul. Other days I think that the 3 or 4 early albums, which churned out hits like a machine, are remarkable in their ability to continue to deliver. The albums that made them famous are underated.

    If you have lived from 15 to 35 thinking one Beatle Album is far and away better than the rest, you are not letting yourself have any fun.

    And Manny should be in the Hall of Fame.

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  35. Wow... a Manny turn Beatles rant. Cool.

    Great comment, Sam. My favorite album has changed over the years. Not because of my tastes or maturing or random subjectivity, but merely because they all have their strengths and the body of work is phenomenal.

    Manny is impressive. But I do believe the steroids issue taints it all. There may be others that make me feel differently. It will be interesting how A-Rod is remembered. Bonds is the only other plays that I have encountered in my years that was so good and so un-loved.

    I think I would bestow the "freak" label on Manny before I would call him a "genius". I agree he is less aloof than Joe portrays in regards to hitting effort/practice, but he was also probably the best right handed hitter of the past 15 years. Hard to ignore that.

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  36. Albert Pujols begs to differ

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  37. Manny WAS a hell of a hitter, one of the most awesome ever. He should be a Hall of Famer.

    But... look, 99.99% of the time, when a fan points to a professional athlete and says, "I could do better than that," the fan is full of beans, and even the fan knows it. We may watch Jerry Rice zip past a slow cornerback and yell, "I could've covered him better than that," but we know that's nonsense (the slowest cornerback in the NFL is waaaay faster than any fan). We may watch a batter swing feebly at a curveball and groan, "I could've hit THAT one out of the park," but we know we couldn't. MOST of the time, "I could do better than that" is just comical hyperbole.

    But I watched Manny B. Manny for many years, and it's neither a joke nor an exaggeration to say that I could have played left field better than he did. Manny made GReg Luzinski look like a Gold Glover.

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  38. Guys, the point of including "Yellow Submarine" was to note that the Beatles could sandwich two beautiful works of art around a comic book. And a bad comic book at that.

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  39. "Reason #159 why attractive women make me wary: Harrison writes "Something." She still left him. Since humming that song is about the most romantic thing I can muster , I dont like my chances with attractive women."

    Maybe if you tried humming "Layla" instead, you'd get those attractive women...

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  40. "Abbey Road" and "The Beatles" (the White Album) are better than "Rubber Soul".

    And the most talented Beatle was Paul McCartney. He was a much better singer than George Harrison, and he could play pretty much any instrument. George was a guitarist only (except for the occasional sitar) and John Lennon couldn't play guitar as well as either of the other two. McCartney could even play drums when Ringo was gone ("Back in the USSR", "The Ballad of John and Yoko") and the band didn't miss a beat.


    Two MannyBManny moments jump out in my memory. One was the time when he apparently had a pee behind the Green Monster at Fenway Park and came out seconds before the first pitch of the inning, still adjusting his zipper. The other time was that play when Damon fielded a ball in center, and tried to throw it back to the infield, but Manny cut it off in shallow left. And he had to dive to do it, too. Bizarre.

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  41. My favorite has to be Manny over-pursuing a routine fly-out against the Angels, flopping on his ass, and proceeding to appear to lose the ball in an unspeakable place.

    And Sam--
    My favorite Beatles album has changed many times over the last 20 years (right now I can't stop listening to the Lennon trilogy that opens "Beatles for Sale"; the line harmonies on "Baby's in Black" are gorgeous), but it always seems to come back to either "Rubber Soul" or "Help!"

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  42. Ranking Beatles albums is an exercise in futility. For myself it's whichever I'm in the mood for. As for "Yellow Submarine", I don't even think that classifies as an album. All it is is previously released material with a few throwaway songs from the Sgt. Pepper and "Magical Mystery Tour" period. I do love "Hey Bulldog" though. For that alone I'm glad they released it.

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  43. No one falls like Buster Keaton.
    No one wrote concertos like Mozart.
    No one had the mental dexterity to think of physics like Einstein.
    No four-man pop group ever produced as much as the Beatles.

    But all that genius still took a lot of work.

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  44. Ben McGrath's profile of Manny in the New Yorker in '07 is a good (re-)read right now:

    http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/04/23/070423fa_fact_mcgrath?currentPage=all

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  45. LoCoDe: I can understand your argument, but I still fail to grasp how the greatest band of all time can be considered overrated by very much.

    As for Manny, underrated is how long he has been using steroids, how much steroids helped him recover from unnatural amounts of weight lifting, and how much those extra muscles led to his talent at hitting. Yes, he did the work, but he's young enough so that perhaps all of his career was steroid influenced, and I'm not going to call a guy like that underrated unless he was never caught by drug testing. Pedro Martinez, maybe, Greg Madduz, perhaps, Ozzie Smith, okay. Manny, not underrated, Palmeiro, nope, McGwire, not underrated until we know how much of what he did was aided by PEDs.

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  46. Glad to know I stirred up such activity in the musical comments. ;-)

    I stand by my observation that Rubber Soul, Revolver, and Sgt. Pepper (to list them chronologically) are generally considered their best albums. Since I have limited research time here at work, all I can find right now is the Rolling Stone 500 Greatest Albums of All-Time, which list Sgt. Pepper (#1 all-time), Revolver (#3), and Rubber Soul (#5) as the top 3 Beatles Albums. FWIW, The White Album is next at #10 overall.

    "Many fans think" or "some people say" is not a replacement for actual fact regarding overall evaluations, but this seems to be the standard for arguing with my list (note, BTW, that I never said I agreed that those with the better reputations were my favorites).

    Joe's list was ridiculous beyond belief, especially for him. Not only were those not the Beatles' 3 best albums, but also no two of those he listed were even recorded consecutively, so they have absolutely no bearing on the Beatles' peak value.

    Anyone arguing that the Beatles are overrated doesn't know beans about music. As for those of you arguing over who was the best of the Fab Four, I will refer you to this (first item on the page):

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0094562/quotes

    And the right answer is still John Lennon.

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  47. What I want to do, as a 21 year-old Beatles lover, is erase everything I know about music and go back to 1965 and listen to all the ensuing music for the first time, before every other band that every existed was influenced by it in some way. I truly believe that you have "heard" Dylan, the Beatles, and Simon & Garfunkel before you listen to any of their songs.

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  49. Manny was fun to watch hit (as a Yankee fan, I'd say he was more fun to watch hit in the top of the ninth with two outs and a 10-0 lead, but fun anyway). The steroids-well, the more people cheat, the more baseball becomes like professional wrestling. Selig and the MLBPA's golden legacy of corruption. So Manny cheated, serially. So Manny doesn't go into the Hall of Fame. Doesn't look like Manny much cared, and I doubt there were too many Red Sox (or Indians, of Dodgers) fans who cared either when he was winning ballgames for them. He had but one talent, but it was a doozy. And who knows, maybe he was listening to Mozart during those BP sessions. Maybe ten years from now, Sixty Minutes will do a profile. They will visit him at his baronial estate, smoking jacket, Irish Setter at his feet, and the Rondo in D in the background. It was all an act. Manny gets the last laugh.

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  50. Matthew,

    That's an interesting point. I'm not sure I agree with it, but it's an interesting idea. I came to The Beatles late. My father was of the opinion that they ruined rock and roll. I owned Sgt. Pepper, and I'd of course heard a smattering of songs on the radio. However, sometime in my mid-twenties it just clicked. I have other way to explain it. I had to go out and buy every Beatles album (or CD, whatever). For six months I experienced them mostly for the first time. I honestly have no words for the sense of discovery, and I'm a little saddened that I'll never get to listen to Revolver or the Abbey Road medley again for the first time. It sounds utterly ridiculous to discover The Beatles thiry years after they split, but there it is.

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  51. To the 21 yr old kid -- The Beatles didnt invent Rock n Roll -- they perfected it.

    Lots of Beatles fans here? Whats the song Lennons Mother played for him that sparked his musical intersts?

    That man and his peer group started it all...

    ...And...Aint that a shame...they rarely get the credit they deserve...

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  52. Some one help me out here. I may have read this wrong. Did Joe point out that MannyBManny faced 27 pitchers only 1 time and homered off all of them? Or am I just tired and need to re-read this post tomorrow?

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  53. joe, i will be shocked if you don't vote for manny. given that you would vote for rose and mcgwire.

    regarding steroid use being 'legal', illegal, tested for, the only difference between mac and manny is, well, manny being manny. who knows how the world may change in five years, but i'm betting you will cast one for manny.

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  54. I have the same question as Chiefs Rule, that seems insane. I understand it the same way.

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