I turned to the New York tabloids Friday morning for guidance, as I often do. I love the tabs. One of my favorite things to do in New York is walk around the corner (whatever corner) and buy the Post and the Daily News, and walk around the corner (whatever corner) and walk into a diner and notice the celebrities (hey, there's Jerry Seinfeld and Colin Quinn!) and order breakfast and spread out the papers and read until the waiter makes it clear that it's time for me to go.
Unfortunately, I'm not in New York right now, but I still went to the Internet version of the tabloids Friday morning because I was DYING to see the "He's Back!" headline on the front for Carlos Beltran.
You might know a few days ago, Derek Jeter hit two home runs in a game. And those two words made up the headline on the front page of the New York Post: "He's Back." A few people mentioned the headline to me, thought I would be bothered by it, but I felt exactly the opposite. I loved it. That was EXACTLY the headline that the New York Post should have had. I look to the Post front page for overreaction, for gut punches, for the very thing that New York cops, construction workers, store owners and waitresses and anyone else you might run into would say.
"He didn't take steroids and he got old," the waitress at a New York restaurant sadly told our group a couple of days before Jeter's epic two-homer day, a perfectly fine summation of current events. And I have no doubt that when Jeter hit those two home runs, that very waitress said those same two words that were on the cover of the Post: He's back!
Of course, Derek Jeter went zero-for-six two days later, and there was no: "Maybe He's Not Back!" headline in the tabloids. And there shouldn't have been -- a player gradually aging into obsolescence is not news anymore than a plane landing safely is news. Derek Jeter will undoubtedly have good moments, good games, and I hope that after every one there is some version of the "He's Back!" headline in the tabs because that's fun.
But Jeter is also slugging .354 in his last 190 games and at the moment Kansas City's Eric Hosmer* trails him by only one extra base hit, though Hosmer has played all of six games. I hope Jeter finds a way to be a solid offensive player again, and certainly his will and baseball intelligence will give him the best chance of doing that. But back? No. The clock doesn't move in the direction.
*A little while ago, I wrote a piece for SI about the Kansas City Royals amazing minor league system, and I do believe from talking with scouts across baseball that it really is an amazing system. That said, I didn't get to see much of the players. I saw them throw a simulated inning or I saw them take a few swings in the cage or whatever. I mean, I'm not my friend Keith Law, so it wouldn't really have mattered if I did see the prospects for extended periods of time. I wouldn't have been able to tell you much.
The exception was Hosmer. Wow. I saw Eric Hosmer swing the bat three times and I said to Royals Assistant GM J.J. Picollo: "Holy cow, this guy is ready to hit in the big leagues RIGHT NOW. You guys won't even be able to send him down." J.J. said the Royals would send him down, and they did, for 26 games, just long enough for him to hit .439.
The kid hit two home runs at Yankee Stadium this week (no doubt stirring Yankees fans to consider who might replace Mark Teixeira in a while) and while the Royals may have at one point been thinking of just bringing Hosmer up for a few games to give him a taste of the big leagues, I think he might be their best hitter right now, and that includes Billy Butler who is a terrific hitter. I think Hosmer might end up being rookie of the year. And I think that while the Royals would probably prefer a little better timing -- Hosmer coming up just as some of the other top prospects are ready -- I think it's actually the best thing in the world for the Royals to have him up now. The process of the Royals as World Series champions by 2015 has begun.
Back to Beltran. He hit THREE home runs yesterday, not two. He's got a 170 OPS+ through 36 games. He's been maligned enough that #blamebeltran is a popular hashtag on Twitter (though, to be fair, it is mostly used ironically). If anyone has ever deserved a "He's Back!" headline, it is Carlos.
The Post came through with a "Beltran Rocks!" backpage, though it was Tiger's withdrawal from the Players' Championship that got the front page ("Tiger goes Limp! Quits after 9 holes"). The Daily News went with the more subtle and punny "Bat Trick" on the back page, though you couldn't blame them for not getting Beltran on the front when they had a photo of a mob boss in white T-shirt saying, in full quotes, "I'm Going To Hell!"
Look, obviously he will not get the Jeter treatment in the tabs. He should not. It's beyond obvious that Carlos Beltran is not anywhere close to Derek Jeter's league when it comes to connection to New York. Beltran did not grow up as a player in New York, he has not won any championships (much less five) he has not made even a single play in New York that would rank as happily memorable as at least 50 Jeter plays, not unless you count him taking strike three in the playoffs. The comparison from a fame or legacy perspective is silly and pointless.
But there are two other questions that interest me more than fame or legacy:
1. How do Derek Jeter and Carlos Beltran compare as players?
2. Which player is more likely to be good from here on out?
Question 1 is tricky. Jeter has played in 550 more games than Beltran. Jeter is almost three years older than Beltran, and he has unquestionably been more durable -- Beltran only played 145 games in 2009 and 2010.
Still, if we're comparing them ... I think it's a lot closer than most people would think. Jeter has been a better hitter. His batting average is 30 or so points higher. Beltran has hit with more power, which is why his career OPS+ is actually one point higher than Jeter's (119 to 118). But that's misleading, I think. Jeter, as mentioned, is older and is in his decline phase (through age 33, Jeter had a 122 OPS+). I would say offensively Jeter has been better for longer.
Defensively, again, it's tricky. Jeter has played shortstop which is the most demanding non-catcher position on the field. How well he has played shortstop, though, has been one of the more contentious arguments of the era. He has won a bunch of Gold Gloves. He has received a lot of praise. And certain defensive numbers have shown him to be well-below average defensively. Beltran has been a brilliant defensive center fielder, both to the eye and by the numbers.
Base running -- Jeter has been a brilliant base runner. Beltran, though, is one of the best base runners who ever lived. Beltran has been successful on 88% of his stolen base attempts -- that's a record. It does seem like Beltran's speed is mostly gone, though he he has still scored from first on doubles both times he had the opportunity. Watching Beltran run the bases has been one of my great baseball thrills the last 20 years or so.
Finally, Jeter has played for the dominant team of the era while Beltran has spent most of his years languishing with bad teams. This is the part that makes the comparison hardest of all. Beltran has scored 100 and driven in 100 seven different times, which is a pretty remarkable thing. Only nobody cares. Numbers piled up on losing teams dissolve into the ether. Jeter's numbers, meanwhile, ring with the power of history.
Put it all together, well, like I say I think it's a lot closer than many people would think. WAR makes a good comparison: Jeter's WAR is 70.5. Beltran's is 58.3. That's 12 wins above replacement difference, but Jeter also has three more years than Beltran. Can Beltran put up 12 WAR over the next three years? From 2001 to 2009, Beltran averaged 5.4 WAR per season. But Beltran is not that player anymore.
And that leads to the second question: Who is likely to be a better player from here on out? Jeter is older. But Beltran has had severe injuries. Jeter is a walking-talking legend. Beltran is in the last year of a contract that pretty much everyone wants to end. Jeter has played his whole career at shortstop, and shortstops do not age well. Beltran has played center field, which is rough on players too, but he has moved to a corner outfield spot where players do age a little better.
So who would you bet on to have more value from this year on? Well, you know how Jeter has looked so far this year -- his two-homer game aside. Beltran, meanwhile, has looked terrific at the plate in the early part of this season. His strikeout rate is down again, his fly ball percentage is way up (he leads the National League in doubles and extra base hits at the moment), he's catching up to the fastball, at least for the time being.
One of the amazing parts of Beltran's game has been his ability to adapt to his circumstances. I remember after the 2002 season, he decided he needed to cut down his strikeouts. And so, blammo, he cut down his strikeouts. LIke it was easy. Players can spend entire careers trying and failing to cut down on strikeouts -- Beltran did it in one off-season. I remember after his miserable 2005 season in New York, there were people saying he would never be able to handle New York. And so, blammo, in 2006 he had perhaps the greatest every-day player season in Mets history.
It's pretty obvious, I think, that different people are motivated by different things. Tom Watson has told me more than once that he does not like playing golf on clear, windless days. It's boring to him. He needs a challenge. I think Beltran is a little like that too. He has been so absurdly talented that he has needed things to spark his interest. I'm not saying that's right or wrong or that it's even ABOUT right or wrong. People are who they are. Beltran has been so graceful, that people assumed he wasn't trying. He has been so gifted, that what he did was never good enough for some. He has played in so many meaningless games, that people didn't want to give him credit. He has had enough injuries and slumps -- and a massive enough contract -- to bring out the cynics in force.
But I think that he's got something left. He's a switch-hitter with power. He's a one-time Gold Glove center fielder who knows how to run the bases. No, Beltran is no longer that brilliant talent. He can't run like he did, can't play defense like he did. The wind is blowing hard. I think that wind might bring out the best of Carlos Beltran.
http://www.tedquarters.net/2011/05/13/the-redemptive-beauty-of-carlos-beltran/
ReplyDeleteJust so you know that some NY Mets fans get it.
I was sure that the tabloids would be bemoaning the fact that, for once, when the Royals and Yankees played, it was the Bombers who made themselves look like a Little League team (especially in the top of the 2nd inning). Two botched double plays, a botched pickoff attempt and a passed ball.
ReplyDeleteWhat a beautiful inning.
I've never been a big 'little Metsies' fan but I'm pulling for Terry Collins and Sandy Alderson to pull lots of magic out of some otherwise nondescript hats and for Beltran to stay healthy, happy and hitting. Maybe they'll still be playing some meaningful games after Labor Day - but I highly doubt it. Their pitching looks paper thin.
ReplyDeleteYou can't get away from the NYC tabloids. If you walk down the street you'll see the front and back pages on display at newsstands on virtually every corner. If you take the subway, there will be people reading tabloids, displaying the front and back pages for you to look at during your ride.
ReplyDeleteI remember a few years after I moved away from NYC, one of my friends from there emailed me saying, "How about that Paul LoDuca?"
I had no idea what was going on with Paul LoDuca. I had to look it up, and it turned out he was involved with 18-year old girls or some such thing. I don't exactly remember. But in my life out here in the Midwest, it was a non-story that nobody knew or cared about. But in NYC, it became something to talk about because it was splashed all over the pages of the tabloids.
To live in NYC peacably, I think you have to consciously ignore the front and back pages of the tabloids. If you don't, you'll get sucked into a new hyped up story every other day. There's just not enough room in a sane person's brain for that kind of media pounding.
One of the great sadnesses of my Mets fandom is the thought that the team needs Carlos Beltran to have a great half-year, reminding us all of how good he really was - just so they can get something great for him in the inevitable trade. We can't just enjoy it for its own sake and be glad Beltran's still got it, at least for a little while longer.
ReplyDeleteReyes is in the same boat, albeit a couple of legs behind Beltran. It really is depressing to think that this is how it must be for the Mets as a franchise, as well as benefitting the two players who will get another shot at a winner before they're unable to contribute.
It's true Beltran has played a lot of meaningless games and stood there looking at strike 3 to end the 2006 NLCS. He also had one of the great post-season runs in history in 2004: 8 HR in 46 AB, 1.000 SLG and 1.500 OPS. Next to the young Griffey, he is also the most amazingly graceful and fluid player of the last 20 years. Of course, he's no Derek Jeter.
ReplyDeleteBeltran is an interesting guy, who tends to be overrated, especially by guys like Joe who love the grace and skills of a player. I watched him in KC, and he was good, but he never really seemed to contribute much in real time to winning games.
ReplyDeleteCalled Strike 3 to end the 2006 playoffs will be the only significant memory he generated during a seven year $120 Million contract stay in New York. Lots of baseball success is random timing, but freezing on strke 3 as the winning run to end game 7 of the playoffs is pure choke (I hate to use that word, but here it is warranted).
Now, he is a highly motivated player in a contract year and, barring injury, will likely have a good year. Joe forgets, and any team to shells out big money for him forgets, that he is 34 years old with a history of injuries; he is not going to have any big years after this one.
Yeah the guy only performs in contract years. /sarcasm
ReplyDelete2006- 7+ WAR season. MVP season with an awesome NLCS. We don't get to the NLCS without him, and because he strikes out on one of the best curves ever, he is a choker? LOL.
2007- 5+ WAR player and was one of the few consistent performers in September during the collapse.
2008- 7+ WAR season.
He is guilty of injuries and being the object of ignorant attention.
Keep living in your own world KC, you obviously have not watched many Mets games since Beltran has come here.
I saw what you did there, Joe, and it was very well-done.
ReplyDeleteIntersting how the piece never actually *says* what it's trying to say, and instead waits til the last sentence to merely *suggest* the whole point, allowing the reader to discover it on his own.
But with the wonderousness of your prose structure put aside, Beltran's an old man with bad knees. The future can't look bright, no matter how well the present is going.
Anybody who trades for him or acquires him in free agency will probably end up feeling the way the Mets did in '05.
Stephen:
ReplyDeleteOf course, I did not say Beltran only performs in contract years. He did, however, put on one of the greatest performances ever in the playoffs of his contract year last time, and he is off to a good start this year.
Beltran is an okay guy and a good player. He is 42nd active in BA, 49th active in OBP, and 30th active in slugging percentage. He also has looked out for himself, dumping KC, dumping Houston and even trying to dump the Mets for the Yankees before he signed the Mets contract that has not panned out for either side (other than Beltran getting richer).
WAR is a very interesting statistic that has validity in an assessment of the overall statistical picture of a player. But baseball is largely a game of great moments. Beltran had a HUGE one. Bases loaded. Down 2 runs. Two outs. Game 7. One swing could take the Mets to the WS. He took strike one. Swung and missed an outside pitch for strike two. And then, froze and took strike three (a very good curveball, but right over the middle of the plate). It, unfortunately, was a choke.
You obviously are a Mets fan, and since you were so caustic and obnoxious in your response, here is the photo for you to relive the moment.
http://bklyn2bham.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/carlos-beltran-strikeout.jpg
Beltran also is 40th active in OPS+, behind guys like Konerko, Rolen, Matsui, Lee, Seizmore, Werth. One point ahead of Jeter and Matt Stairs.
ReplyDeleteFortunately, I can look at that picture and feel no malice. It was a great season, Carlos Beltran is a great player, and I'm a proud Mets fan.
ReplyDeleteGo back to being irrelevant.
Kansas City, I have a question for you, as you seem like the perfect person to answer such a question. Is ignorance bliss like everybody says, or is it just hype?
ReplyDeleteAlso, only a very, very, very ignorant Met fan (or a fan of the Royals, who wouldn't even know about how to build a winning team if he was given the manual by Theo Epstein) would try to make the point that the Beltran contract is a failure. He has been a marvelous player and worth every penny. Enjoy Jeff Francouer lol, and enjoy Hosmer until they trade him in 2 years.
ReplyDeleteAlso, Beltran looks out for himself by dumping the the Royals and Astros? You can't even possibly be serious, can you? He was traded for a big package of prospects by Kansas City (2 relievers, and a backup catcher, rofl, for what would be the top CF in baseball for like 6 or 7 years, because the Royals are a massive joke) and then he became a free agent. He certainly owed nothing to a loser franchise in KC, who had done nothing but surround him with losing players for 6 years, and he owed nothing to Houston to whom he generated massive amounts of extra income by getting them into the playoffs and then getting red hot and doing his best to carry them through the NLCS.
ReplyDeleteI have never understood the NY Mets fans that don't get his greatness. 05 aside, I have been amazed and thoroughly enjoyed watching him as much as I could. I hope he finishes his career in RF for the Mets, but I doubt that will happen, so I at least hope he knows he is more than appreciated by any Mets fan that actually watched him play. I just wish we could have put together a championship season(s) that his talent deserved so we don't have to mention how most everything he has done was for losing teams. The sad part is that 06 team could have started something special and instead the past few years happened.
ReplyDeleteAlso, Beltran was always a highly motivated player while here. He wanted to get back from injury even when the team stunk
ReplyDeleteWeird stuff from Mets fans on Beltran (although I guess just 3 of them). He has hit 280 over 7 years for the Mets, averaging about 20 homers a year and got them into the playoffs once - where he sent them home taking the famous called strike three. No world series, but I guess you guys think that 3.5 WAR per year is more important than the WS.
ReplyDeleteAnd remember that great 2007 when the Mets blew the divsion to the Phillies? Your boy hit .224 with 2 outs and RISP and .175 in late and close situations, striking out 35 times in 122 AB's.
Sorry, but the ineptitude of the Mets is not what was expected at the start of that seven year $120 million contract, after the Yankees turned down the cheaper deal he offered them. It was probably doomed from the start, but if he had not choked in the 9th inning against the Cardinals, the Mets at least would have been in one WS.
KC, Adam Wainwright threw one of the wickedest curveballs in memory in that moment. To accuse Beltran of "choking" by failing to do what probably any other batter in baseball would have also failed to do is absurd.
ReplyDeleteGood to see KC ignoring the first rule of holes. As to his "argument":
ReplyDelete"He has hit 280 over 7 years for the Mets, "
Using batting average to determine the value of a player. How . . . quaint.
"got them into the playoffs once "
Baseball is a team sport with a 25-man roster. For three years the Mets had the best CF, 3B and one of the top-3 shortstops in the game, and in '08 one of the top 2 pitchers in baseball. The failure to make the playoffs more than once says more about Minaya's poor roster construction than failngs on their part.
And yes, Beltran had a miserable September '07, as did every Met not named David Wright and Moises Alou. But funny how you fail to mention his September '08: .344/.440/.645 with 6 homers and 19 RBI, and also the 2-run homer in the closing game of '08 to keep them in the game. But hey, mentioning those numbers kind of defeats your argument that he's a choking dog (as do his post-season numbers), so I can understand why you wouldn't bring them up.
Come on guys. I've said Beltran is a good player and cited the nubmers to prove it. He has a 119 OPS+, which I cited him as 40th among active players. I never said he a "choking dog." I said he had a huge moment and choked. It was a good curve, but it was right over the plate (that is not the location of a "great" curve) and it apparently surprised him, but you can't take strike 3 in that situation. Even some kind of weak swing would have had the chance of fouling if off or sneaking a base hit somewhere.
ReplyDeleteThe contract was a disaster. The Mets paid him over $19 Million each of the past two years and presumably this year. The team is broke. As Joe said, both he and the Mets can't wait for the contract to end. Look, I'm dealing with 20/20 hindsight and, at the time, the contract might have been a reaonable move. It turned out to be a disaster. And those of us who are not fans of players dumping their old teams and exercising their perfectly entitled right to maximize their money can smile a bit.
Paul,
ReplyDeleteYou think any other batter in baseball would have struck out looking against Wairwright on three pitches with the based load and two outs in the 9th inning of game 7 of the playoffs in 2006? Can't be true.
"The contract was a disaster. "
ReplyDeleteWrong again. According to Fangraphs he has basically been worth every penny he has been paid, and then some. Again, that things have collapsed around him have little to do with his own performance.
"Can't be true."
How can I debut such a strongly backed up opinion. Obviously Beltran is the first and only person to strike out in a similar situation.
"And those of us who are not fans of players dumping their old teams and exercising their perfectly entitled right to maximize their money can smile a bit. "
Well at least we get to the nub of your argument. You detest Beltran for whatever personal reasons that have little or nothing to do with his performance. That's certainly your prerogative, as it is our to discount much of what you say about him.
"And those of us who are not fans of players dumping their old teams and exercising their perfectly entitled right to maximize their money can smile a bit."
ReplyDeleteso yes, I guess ignorance is bliss. Thank you.
Tell me something I said wrong here, other than our disagreement over whether the harsh term "choke" is applicble to him getting called out with the World Series on the line?
ReplyDeleteI've said he is a good player. I've cited his good stats. I sure don't detest him. I said he was a good guy.
The fact that fangraphs or some othe statistical analysis says the contract was justified is just a statistic.
You guys can't tell me that when the Mets (and you fans) gave him the $120 Million contract that over the next seven years that they expected ZERO world series appearances, one playoff appearance, a .280 BA and 20 HR's a year (not to mention the strikeout).
Look, I said it might have been a reasonable contract at the time. It did not work. He will be paid about $60 Million over the last three years of the contract, which are three disasterous years for the now broke Mets. This is not his fault (other than the striekout). The signing just did not work.
And, unfortunately for the Mets, I don't think anything significant good has happened to the team since he took strike three. Let's call it the curse of Beltran.
I'm a different Stephen than the other one (I always use the lower-case stephen; not that it matters at all to anyone), but I hold the same opinions. Beltran has been amazing and wonderful for the Mets, and I will be sad to see him go. Also, given their prospects (Duda, Nieuwenhuis, Martinez, Pridie) who don't necessarily jump off the page or are just injured a lot (F-Mart), I actually would love to see Beltran sign a one or two year contract with the Mets at the end of the season. It will never happen, of course, but I would love it. I wonder what he'll command or get and whatever it is, the negotiations will be fascinating to discuss.
ReplyDeleteAnd KC, the contract was not--at all--a disaster. Everyone else said pretty much everything already, but I'd like to add that the fact that the "team is broke" has nothing to do with Beltran. You should read up on Fred Wilpon and what has actually caused the Mets financial woes. Further, saying that he averaged 20 HR a season for the contract is counter to your argument because he's missed plenty of time due to injury. And finally, picking out ONE moment in Beltran's tenure (the strikeout) and using it as proof of anything at all save for the fact that that moment actually occurred, is nuts.
Joe: I don't think it's fair to say that Beltran's speed is "mostly gone". I think the only thing that is different is his starting and stopping speed, which is driven by his arthritic knee. He's still plenty fast. I also think it's a no-brainer that Beltran will be more valuable than Jeter from here on.
Kudos, too, to Bandini for posting a Ted Berg link. Love that guy.
Kansas City, baseball is a team sport. Perhaps in your world Luis Sojo would be inducted into the Hall of Fame because of his five World Series rings?
ReplyDeleteAnd perhaps you can a more valuable CFer between '05 and '09? (Just so you know, Torii Hunter posted inferior numbers.)
KC: You posted as I was posting, so I'll respond to what you just said.
ReplyDeleteFirst, that the contract was justified is not "just a statistic". It looks at all team payrolls, determines what each team pays per win (or per WAR), and averages it across all teams' results. Beltran, based on his WAR total and what all teams have paid per WAR, has been worth it. In other words, Beltran's VALUE is at or more than what his COST was.
Second, you seem to be conflating one player's ability with that of his team. Beltran was amazing and in no way did his contract hamper the Mets' ability to spend more (I mean, they got and paid for Santana and re-upped Wright AFTER getting Beltran). Therefore, I do not understand why you blame Beltran for the Mets not winning a WS. Was Ernie Banks a bum for never winning a WS? This argument is ludicrous.
And please, STOP mentioning the strikeout. You're using the smallest possible sample-size of one AB (not counting a walk/PA) to judge an entire seven-year contract. In that context, one AB, regardless of the stage, is borderline irrelevant.
JE:
ReplyDeleteSure, baseball is a team sport and once every 50 years or so the $120 Million superstar comes up with the bases loaded and two outs in the bottom of the 9th of game 7. And sometimes a guy like Sojo might come up in that spot. It is part of what makes baseball a great game. Beltan had his moment. He was exactly the guy the Mets wanted up. It was the guy they signed in hopes of this moment. And he failed miserably, starting five years and counting of misery for the Mets.
It does not make him a bad guy or a bad player -- just a guy who failed at the ultimate point in his career and in the recent history of the Mets franchise. It might have faded away somewhat with later Met success, but alas, that was not the case.
Beltran signed a seven year contract and had three good years (maybe a 4th now). Perhaps you are satisfied with that and can forgive THE STRIKEOUT. But let's be truthful. It is not what the Mets expected when they signed him.
stephen:
ReplyDeleteThe Fangraphs analysis might be cool and might even be a good approach (I don't think so because I consider WAR fascinating and helpul, but the whole story).
Beltran had a combineD WAR of 8.0 in 2006, while Molina (the guy who got the bit hit in the 9th and then cleverly called change up, curve ball, curve ball for THE STRIKEOUT) had a combined -.2 WAR. See how there is much more to baseball than WAR?
And I really am not using one at bat to judge a seven year stay with the Mets. He has been a good, but not great, player, the same as he has been througout his career.
1.054
ReplyDeleteKC, that number is Beltran's OPS in 2006 NLCS. He did more than *any* other player on the Amazins in that series.
As others have pointed out, Beltran is *not* the reason why the Mets have not won a World Series.
And as I mentioned above, no CFer has been more valuable between '05 and '09.
I obviosly meant WAR is NOT the whole story. It is just another tool. I think it is a pretty good tool to judge a player's overall contribution each year and over a career and, to a much lesser extent, judging contracts and trades.
ReplyDeleteJE:
ReplyDeleteWhat is your view/explanation of THE STRIKEOUT?
Outsmarted? Loss of concentration? Random chance?
I know these guys bat thousands of times, but I can't imagine that Beltran was not nervous at that at bat. And I imagine it has haunted him since that time. He is only huma. I guess the money helps him forget and, as a ball player, you have to learn to forget. I feel sorry for him.
Kansas City:
ReplyDeleteThat was ONE at bat. ONE. It's irrelevant in regards to Beltran's career as a player. As a Mets fan, it will always be a crushing moment. I've watched that pitch a ton of times and every time I want Beltran to swing and win the game. But the fact is, it was a filthy pitch thrown by the guy who, for the past few years, has had THE BEST curveball in game. He struck out. Players strike out all the time. That just happened to be at a critical moment. To place so much importance on one at bat when evaluating a career of a player is idiotic.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteCome on guys, obviously KC has proven his point. Clutch hitters never strikeout to end post-season series.
ReplyDeletehttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/10/25/sad-ryan-howard-is-sad/
Evan,
ReplyDeleteI loved the line that evert time you see it you want Beltran to swing and win the game.
I suppose you are [unfairly] calling me idiotic and claiming falsely that I am placing so much importance on one at bat when evaluating a career. How many times so I have to say Beltran is a good player. He is just overrated and a classic case of a player looking out for himself.
I would never call you idiotic, but look what your passion has caused you to say: "[THE STRIKEOUT] is irrelevant in regards to Beltran's career as a player."
It was the biggest at bat of his career. Of course it is relevant. I supopse using your theory, Mazorowski's at bat in game 7 was irrelevant, as was Bobby Thompsons at bat in 1951 and Branca's pitch on that September day? For a Kansas City perspective, George Brett's game winning homer against Gossage sending the Royals to their first WS or even Dane Iorg's based hit in the 9th to win game 6 in 85? Bucky Dent in Boston? All irrelevant in regard to their careers? How about Wainright? And, of course, for every hero there is a goat. Bill Buckner? That's baseball.
"I feel sorry for him. "
ReplyDeleteCarlos Beltran is, as you above all else have pointed out, has made $120 million over the past 7 years, and will certainly earn more over the next few. He has opened academies for kids in areas of the world that have been neglected. He has enjoyed a borderline Hall of Fame career playing a game that we all daydream of playing every day.
You are an anonymous dude posting comments on a much more talented person's blog.
I'm sure Carlos Beltran appreciates your pity.
"What is your view/explanation of THE STRIKEOUT?"
ReplyDeleteIt was a damn good curve ball, KC. Beltran need not hang his head in shame, particularly since Wainwright was en route to becoming a dominant starting pitcher.
Probably the best evidence that I have won this argument is the combination of people mischaracterizing what I said (e.g., clutch hitters never strike out to end post season playoffs)and people going way out on the illogical limb (e.g., the at bat is irrlevant).
ReplyDeletePaul,
ReplyDeleteDon't know why anyone needs to attack personally. I'm entitled to my opinion.
JE says it was a damn good curveball. Evan says it is irrelevant. You forgive based on his career.
I say Beltran is a good player and a good guy, who unfortunately choked on the biggest at bat of his career. I realize choked is a loaded word, because it implies nerves or panic got to him and I don't really know that to be the case. He certainly looked awful. Maybe the word is too strong but if it can't be used for this, maybe it should just be put away.
If Beltran had instead swung wildly at a ball in the dirt, KC, my view would be no different.
ReplyDeleteKC - I think the problem is you are confusing baseball history with a baseball career. Sure, Beltran's strike out was one of the most historic moments of his career ('04 playoffs aside), especially as a Mets fan. However, when judging the entire career of a player, that was one at bat, where he unfortunately struck out. Beltran has had a wonderful career and tenure for the Mets, and I think he was one of the most underrated players of the last ten years.
ReplyDeleteAlso, you have mentioned his BA and average HR with Mets, but I'd be curious to see his 162 game average over that time (to take his injuries into account). I'm pretty sure it would be higher than 20 HR a season.
"Don't know why anyone needs to attack personally. I'm entitled to my opinion. "
ReplyDeleteSpare me. You continually belittle Beltran's ability while harping on a solitary at bat in his career, ignoring arguments that counter things that you have said. Then you make some bizarre statement about his character and get huffy when called on it. Yes, you're entitled to your opinion, and we're entitled to say how silly it is.
NYC 18,
ReplyDeleteHis 162 game average is about 30 homer runs. An interesting stat, but not what the Mets have gotten out of him.
You are correct about THE STRIKEOUT being a historic moment. I would say the most historic moment of Beltran's career because it was a single at bat when the attention of the entire baseball world and the fate of the Mets' season in his hands, although I realize he had a terrific run in the 2004 playoffs as well.
Judging from these comments even more than five years latter, I think the moment still is too raw (with the subsequent meltdown of the team) for some Met fans to be reasonable about it.
It was the defining moment of the last ten years for a Mets team that, right now, looks like it will dump Beltran by mid-season and probably not sniff the playoffs for at least the next five years and maybe longer. Fair or not to Beltran, his contract will be viewed as a failure.
Take Paul for example. I agree with Paul that Beltran has great abilty. When rational, even Paul likely will agree that Beltran had a terrible moment in a historic situation. I think with the 40th best OPS+ among active players, I think Beltran is a great talent who has underachieved.
I realize that I have probably worn out whatever welcome I had when I started criticizing Beltran for THE STRIKEOUT, but I did not draw any response to my observation about how WAR fared with respect to THE STRIKEOUT and that game 7:
ReplyDelete"Beltran had a combined WAR of 8.0 in 2006, while Molina (the guy who got the bit hit in the 9th and then cleverly called change up, curve ball, curve ball for THE STRIKEOUT) had a combined -.2 WAR. See how there is much more to baseball than WAR?"
It is one reason why I take WAR as just one evaluation tool, which does not necessarily tell you much in the heat of the moment of close games.
Any comments?
One other point is that once the Mets dump Beltran to a contender this year (the Royals maybe?), fate might give Beltran a chance at big moment redemption. I hope he doesn't freeze on another curve ball and take strike three to send his team home again.
ReplyDeleteAs seven year signings go, or $100+ contracts, where does Beltran's productivity rank?
ReplyDeleteI don't know, but I'm confident it is at least in the top 50%.
My guess is that it is probably in the top 25%, and I would not be surprised if it is even in the top 10%.
Beltran has certainly produced far more than most players who had these types of contracts have.
Kansas City, it's almost unfathomable the way you think. Yes, Molina is a better player then Beltran because he hit a homerun one time when Beltran didn't. Forget about the rest of the season, or their careers for that matter. Molina had one instance where Beltran K'ed and he came up big. Let's ignore the fact that if you replaced Beltran with a Molina type offensive player the Mets aren't even in the playoffs in the first place. Juts out of curiosity, how old are you? 17 or 18? Younger? Has to be really young or really old, imo.
ReplyDelete"Judging from these comments even more than five years latter, I think the moment still is too raw (with the subsequent meltdown of the team) for some Met fans to be reasonable about it."
ReplyDeleteSays the fool who won't be reasonable about it?
"It is one reason why I take WAR as just one evaluation tool, which does not necessarily tell you much in the heat of the moment of close games.
ReplyDeleteAny comments?"
Yes, WAR is flawed but you cite BA and meaningless statistics in every post, and continually go back to one meaningless AB (in Carlos' career, not for the Mets) to somehow prove your warped opinion that Beltran isn't good. Sure, in analyzing baseball of the 2000's, that was a big at bat for the Mets. In discussing the greatness of an individual career, that game 7 at bat vs Wainwright means less than nothing.
Boy, that Ted Williams sure was overrated. He never won a World Series.
ReplyDelete"What is your view/explanation of THE STRIKEOUT?"
ReplyDeleteMy explanation is that Beltran is one of the greatest players of his era not just because he can hit (for average, for power, from both sides), not just because of his defense (again, one of if not the best centerfielder of his era), but because of his eye at the plate, which is truly stellar. If you watch that pitch, it came in at 12 and dropped straight down. It ended up in the strike zone, which is why it was such a fantastic pitch, but neither you nor anyone else could have said it would end up there. And maybe, if we looked at history, we'd find that to flail desperately at the potentially final pitch of an important series, regardless of where it might end up, would be a winning strategy. I haven't done the research so I can't say for certain, but I'm thinking not.
"those of us who are not fans of players dumping their old teams"
And here is the crux of the thing. Beltran once made you feel small, and now you would dearly like to think of him feeling small.
Oh, and as pointed out above, he OPS'ed 1.054 that post-season, and if we just look solely at game 7, Beltran was one of the few Mets able to even get on base, and he scored the lone run.
ReplyDeleteI think you probably didn't even watch that game, you just know it to be a talking point against Beltran. If you had watched it, you would not be able to disrespect his play, in that game or in general, the way you do here.
Hey Kansas City: If you think nobody else has or ever will strike out looking to end a playoff series, I ask you what is your opinion of Ryan Howard striking out against Brian Wilson in the NLCS last season. Do you have the same opinion of Ryan Howard, who came up small in the exact same spot or does he get a reprieve because his team happened to win a World Series that one time?
ReplyDeleteKC, I'm beginning to think you're just trolling. You say you've "won" the argument. I don't understand this. You are the only one on your side, arguing nonsense against like 10 different BRs, all of whom think you're wrong.
ReplyDeleteAbout your little WAR comparison in regards to Beltran vs. Molina (and I'll couple this with the fact that you claim that you do, in fact, understand and appreciate WAR): You, sir, do not understand WAR and/or appreciate WAR. It is not a predictive tool. It measures *past* value. That Beltran's WAR was 8.0 and Molina's was -0.2 should lead you to the conclusion that Beltran is very, very good at baseball and Molina is not. You've instead taken two ABs and are trying to use this smallest-possible-sample-size-of-one-AB-each data to somehow invalidate WAR's importance ("See how there is much more to baseball than WAR?"). This is wrong, this is backwards thinking, this is counter-productive, etc.
You're obviously not a Mets fan, and obviously do not watch Carlos Beltran play baseball, at all. I have no idea why you have such a vendetta against Beltran, but I am not interested at all in finding out.
And just FYI, almost all sentient Mets fans have gotten over "The Strikeout" and appreciate Beltran for the amazing player he was and is. Place a 2011 version of any one of us in the Mets GM position in 2004 and I guarantee we'd all sign Beltran to that exact deal. He has been worth it and has a very legitimate claim to being one of the best non-pitcher Mets of all-time. Please refer to the following page and note that Beltran's name appears all over it, even in counting stats like Runs Scored, despite playing in many less games than those above him:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYM/leaders_bat.shtml
Nice to hear that some Mets fans are still high on Beltran, although the sample size here is small. In my occasional trips to New York City and trips to Shea and Citi Field, I had received a different impression.
ReplyDeleteI'm not even sure there is that much disagreement here. The reasonable response by NYC 18 was agreement that THE STRIKEOUT was a historic moment, but the judgment of Beltran should focus mostly on the rest of his Mets career. So the disagreement is over how much weight to give THE STRIKEOUT.
It still is oddd how others, like HR max 88, resort to mischaractrization of my positoin and attack. I never said Molina was a better player than Beltran; I used the comparison to raise the question of whether WAR means much in the big moment of close games (probably not much) and used the Beltran/Molina comparison as an illustration. Still, HR max 88 responds:
"Kansas City, it's almost unfathomable the way you think. Yes, Molina is a better player then Beltran because he hit a homerun one time when Beltran didn't."
My comment also had nothing to do with home runs. Molina did not hit one in the 9th and Beltran did not need to hit one. But in HR max 88's fury, he can't think straight.
The Molina comparison was also interesting because it involved calling pitches by a catcher that, in this instance, was very important. Normally, it is hard to find clear value in that aspect of the game.
Dude, you're wrong and you're ignorant and now you're just trolling. Please stop.
ReplyDeleteAnd it's ridiculous that you categorize the number of Mets fans here as a small sample-size. On the one hand, you're using the concept of small sample-size to debunk the very real and logical opinions of the BRs here. On the other hand, you're ignoring the concept of SSS in the most egregious way possible (as far as baseball goes) by continually bringing up one AB in order to judge a player and a contract. You're a joke.
stephen,
ReplyDeleteYou are impolite and disrespectful. Intelligent baseball fans should be able to discuss these type of things without mischaracterizing the other's guy's position and calling him names. It demeans you and your arugments.
I think Kansas City had an EXTREMELY large bet on the Mets in 2006, and got his knees broken for failing to pay up, and he still blames Beltran for the fact that he now walks with a limp. Nothing else makes any sense.
ReplyDeleteWell, I suppose he could just be a obsessive troll, but I doubt that very much, given the general calibre of Joe's readers.
Just out of curiosity, KC: since you seem to like sample sizes of one pitch for New York Mets players, did Kenny Rogers choke when he threw ball four to Andruw Jones with the bases loaded in the bottom of the 11th of Game 7 of the NLCS?
David,
ReplyDeleteFunny.
I genuinely believe, as even fair minded Beltran fans agree, THE STRIKEOUT was a historic moment that will be the most remembered event in Beltran's Mets career. Contrary to what folks have accused me of here, I never have said Beltran was anything other than a good player and a good guy. I also never said THE STRIKEOUT was the principal way to judge Beltran's career.
The "sample size" agrument about THE STRIKEOUT is a mischaracterization or misunderstanding of my arugment. I have repeatedly cited Beltran's career OPS+ as a judgment of his career in general.
I realize "choke" is a bad word and I hate to use it. Maybe I should not have used it on Beltran with respect to THE STRIKEOUT. But, I do harbor some bad feelings for how Beltran abandoned KC, and even for how he abandoned Houston. Less so, for his attempt to cut a deal with the Yankees and abandon the Mets. I know he and Boras are entitled to get the best deal they can and the place he wants to be. I assume Beltran now has some regrets, as the Mets prepare do dump him, but maybe not.
Kenny Rogers also had a very bad moment in a huge game. I also would be tempted to say that an experienced and good pitcher walking someone in that situatoin was a "choke," but I realize is it a serious charge and that that walks, like caught looking strikeouts, are part of baseball. As to Beltran, he just seemed so unusually inept in THE STRIKEOUT that I thought something more was going on. Let's just agree that a good player had a very bad moment at a crucial moment in recent baseball history.
I think I have to agree with David in NYC. I can't think of a better explanation for Kansas City's fixation.
ReplyDeleteIt seems KC, following post after post of treating everyone like a child that needs to be educated, has decided to take the high road. Good to know that by using the word "troll", I'm now disrespectful, impolite, not an intelligent baseball fan, incapable of characterizing anything, and that I've demeaned myself and my arguments. Good gravy, am I sorry I got involved in this.
ReplyDeletestephen
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry you got involved in this too and sorry that you felt like I was treating you like a child that needs to be educated. If you feel like you behaved in a polite and respectful manner, that's for you to decide. Interesting to see that Joe has Mets fan readers. Can't wait to see who the Mets trade Beltran to.
Met Owner Fred Wilpon's view:
ReplyDeleteBeltran also is an impending free agent and a likely candidate to be shipped out by July's trade deadline. Wilpon criticized himself for agreeing to give the center fielder a seven-year, $119 million contract after he hit .435 with eight home runs in the 2004 postseason for the Astros, who lost in the NLCS to the Cardinals.
"We had some schmuck in New York who paid him based on that one series," Wilpon said, referring to his idea to sign Beltran, who has been slowed by knee injuries but has played better than expected as a right fielder this season. "He’s 65 to 70 percent of what he was."
Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/metsblog/mets_owner_rips_reyes_beltran_and_Srdv3R9rfF8zRONGq7mz8J#ixzz1NEUOyiGG