Every now and again, I begin a blog post without having any idea where it's going. OK, that's not exactly true -- I start MOST of my blog posts that way. But I start this one even more uncertain than usual. The following is just an emptying of my mind. There are four topics clanking around up there. The intentional walk. The dunk. Phil Mickelson. The U.S. Women's soccer team. As far as I know, they have nothing to do with each other. And I don't really know what I feel about ANY of this. There are no conclusions that follow, no hard opinions, no certainties whatsoever. It's just throwing paint against a wall ...
If you read this with any regularity, I've probably already bored you with stories about my two daughters. Elizabeth and Katie. They are very different. Elizabeth is 9; she's dramatic and sensitive and silly. Katie is 6; she's a force of nature. We all watched the women's World Cup Final on Sunday -- or, anyway, they watched parts of it between doll sessions -- and they had different rooting interests. Elizabeth did not have a strong rooting interest, but she dreamily rooted for Japan because of the earthquake and tsunami devastation there; she wanted to believe what they were saying on TV -- that a Japanese victory would provide a little relief and joy for that shattered nation. Katie, meanwhile, rooted for the United States because she intends to be on the U.S. World Cup team someday.
That more or less fits their personalities. Elizabeth is only fleetingly interested in winning. Katie lives for it. As parents, we constantly find ourselves battling those tendencies ... that is, we're always trying to add a bit of ambition to Elizabeth's schedule and trying to temper Katie's fury. At the same time, we are always trying to foster Elizabeth's good heart and trying to stay out of the way of Katie natural competitiveness and enthusiasm. I'd say our batting average is about like Adam Dunn's. It really is a lot easier raising Chia Pets.
But watching them watch the World Cup made me think about something else -- what do I teach them about winning?
* * *
Have you ever noticed that many of the best sports movies end in defeat. This isn't always true, of course. Hoosiers ends in unabashed victory. The Natural ends with the ball shattering lights and a father playing catch with his son (that's the movie; the book is much darker). But Rocky loses to Apollo Creed in the first movie. The Bad News Bears lose their last game. Raging Bull is about losing everything. Fast Eddie wins but finds it empty in The Hustler. The Peaches lose their last game in A League Of Their Own. I didn't like Tin Cup, but many people did, and that was a celebration of defeat. Crash Davis doesn't make it back to the big leagues. Bran's Song ends in death. Eight Men Out ends in banishment. The Indians do not win the World Series in Major League (giving us the lamentable Major League 2).
The point is that in movies, there's an emotion that might be even stronger than victory. That emotion is tied up in valiant effort. Rocky would not have been nearly as good a movie had he won. He won while losing. That's the point -- winning while losing -- at least until the next five Rocky movies ...
But, you will say, that's art. That's not sports. In sports, there is winning ... and there is losing ... and there are the intense emotions tied to each. The term "moral victory" is used more often in mockery than in celebration. The idea of winning ugly trumps the concept of losing with honor. Ask yourself the question: If your favorite team can win the Super Bowl on a bad call or lose on the correct one, which would you choose? Is it even a choice?
* * *
People send me emails all the time about intentional walk scenarios ... that is they want to know if I think that the intentional walk makes STRATEGIC sense if, say, a truly terrible hitter is on deck. Sometimes they want to know if I agreed with an intentional walk that turned around a seemingly hopeless inning or whatever.
I do have some strategic thoughts about the intentional walk. I think it's wildly overused by managers. But sometimes it works. Sometimes it makes strategic sense. My overpowering thoughts about it, though, have nothing to do with strategy. They are visceral. I HATE the intentional walk. I hate it because I think it's anti-competitive, and I think it's cowardly, and I think it goes against the very reason why we watch sports. Baseball teams should not have an easy option to avoid pitching to Albert Pujols or Miggy Cabrera or Evan Longoria when the game is on the line. It is, to me, a flaw in the game's rules -- I love Bill James' suggestion that a player should be allowed to turn down a walk -- and one that teams flaunt regularly.
That said, do I BLAME them for flaunting that rule? Well, maybe I do, but I realize that in this I'm in the vast, vast, vast minority. Herm Edwards had it right. You play to win the game. Ask yourself the question: If your favorite team can have a .01% better chance of winning World Series Game 7 by intentionally walking Josh Hamilton or Ryan Braun, well, what would you do? Would you challenge him? Would you try to win the hard away, by beating the other team's best hitter? Or would you choose the tiniest statistical advantage no matter how boring and apathetic it might be? What would you choose?
Is it even a choice?
* * *
Phil Mickelson was five shots back at the British Open on Sunday when he went on a charge for the ages. He birdied the second hole. He birdied the fourth. The wind was blowing hard. The course was playing hard. He birdied the sixth hole. He made a long eagle putt at No. 7. He birdied the 10th hole. He was SIX UNDER through 10 holes. He was tied for the lead. He was in position to win the golf tournament. He had a shot of shooting in the 50s. He was playing golf as few have ever played it.
And then, the magic dried up. This is golf. You don't get to stay at that level for very long. Mickelson missed a short putt at the 11th, and he bogeyed the 13th hole, the 15th hole, the 16th hole, and on 18 he pulled his approach shot about 40 yards to the right of the green, so far right that it hit somebody like 25 rows up in the bleachers. He finished second behind Darren Clarke, three shots back.
In many ways, from what I read and heard, people decided this was a synopsis of Mickelson's career -- brilliant and flawed, magical and doomed, spectacular and inevitably defeated. I can't argue the point. But I kind of wondered if we might look at it differently. I'm thrilled for Darren Clarke, who played so well and seems such a decent man. But couldn't you at least make the argument that Phil Mickelson won too? I mean, if I remember anything from the 2011 British Open, it will be his amazing first 10 holes on Sunday. He was so good that I watched those 10 holes on tape delay ... and I cannot imagine anything less useful than watching golf on tape delay. He was so good that I found myself, in the early stages of learning how to play golf, swinging a golf club just because he inspired me to do it.
You know what it reminded me of, in a weird way? Josh Hamilton in that home run derby. You remember? Hamilton was this amazing comeback story, and he bashed home run after home run in the Derby. It was awe inspiring. Hamilton didn't WIN that Derby, you might remember, because the rules are absurd and ever-changing. But nobody cared about that. He DID win. I know this because I do not remember who actually won the pointless thing, and I don't care enough to look it up.
The best at their best can show us what's possible. Didn't Phil Mickelson do that on Sunday? I think he did. And isn't that just about the best thing in sports? Isn't that even better, in a weird way, than winning?
Or is that only true in movies and home run derbies?
* * *
Elizabeth cheered when Japan finished off the United States women in the shootout. Katie cried. Elizabeth explained that she was happy for Japan after all its people have been through, and anyway, winning isn't the most important thing. Katie grumbled about being lectured and cried because she liked the U.S. team, and she liked Hope Solo, and, as mentioned, she wants to play on her team someday.
Margo, my wife, definitely veered toward Katie. She too was rooting hard for the U.S., and she thought they blew it. They were clearly the superior team. The first 22 or so minutes -- as I tweeted -- it looked like the United States was on the power play. They seemed to have at least three more players than Japan. And the Japanese were helpless. They could not get the ball out of their own end. The U.S. had opportunity after opportunity. Abby Wambach's strike hit the crossbar. Three or four or five other chances were simply missed. The score after that 22-minute flurry was 0-0.
The U.S. twice led by a goal late -- Japan scored the equalizer with ten minutes left in regulation, and the second equalizer with something like three minutes left in overtime. Both were dreadful goals, especially the regulation time goal which featured a calamitous series of American defensive miscues. And the shootout was a sporting disaster; the United States players either missed or were stuffed on its first three chances. Margo flatly said -- and I saw some friends on Twitter make the same point -- that high-level women athletes should be treated precisely like men high-level men athletes, and that to do anything else is to patronize them. If a heavily favored U.S. men's team in any sport had thoroughly outplayed its opponent, twice blown leads and then failed miserably in the decisive moments, there would be nothing feel good-about it at all.
And I see that point. But then I think about the dunk ...
* * *
I like women's basketball. I don't like it for politically correct purposes or because I have young daughters. I like it because I like pretty much any sport that is played with passion and enthusiasm and skill. I like it because there are aspects of the women's game -- perimeter passing, outside shooting, fundamental rebounding -- that I miss in the game.
That's fine. That's just me. I know many people don't like women's basketball. They find it boring. They struggle with the pace. They find it disconcerting -- they have grown so used to watching basketball above the rim that they find they cannot watch basketball below. That's fine too. People don't need a reason to dislike a sport. We're not talking about required courses here. If you like NASCAR, follow NASCAR. If you don't, don't. Same goes with women's basketball, golf, poker, baseball, tennis, MMA, whatever. Enjoy what you enjoy. Ignore what you ignore.
The only thing that bugs me is when people say that they don't watch women's basketball because women don't dunk ... or some offshoot of that sentiment. There are two reasons it bugs me. One ... it's utterly disingenuous. The people who complain that women don't dunk would not watch the games if women did dunk.
But two: Why should women play exactly like men? Why can't they create their own game? The dunk is fine, it's thrilling sometimes, overbearing a lot of the time, but it's not the singular thing that makes basketball great. I believe that in many ways the dunk has overshadowed some of the things that DO make basketball great -- the flow of the game, great passing, the hook shot, back-to-the-basket moves, mid-range shooting and so on. Who is working on that stuff when they can be working on dunks?
You know: It was fun when baseball pitchers had wildly different motions. It was fun when football quarterbacks weren't all 6-foot-4 and could throw spirals through metal safes. It was fun when tennis styles were wildly different, when golf swings were wildly different, when sports made room for innovation and evolution rather than ramming it down our throats that there is only one right way to do something.
My feeling is: Let women's basketball evolve on its own. Why the heck should they dunk? It's not like men's basketball is the ideal. It isn't. NBA basketball is often artistic and athletic and wonderful. And it is also often boring and motionless and seemingly without passion. It's a different game. Let the women's game become what it will become.
* * *
A day after the World Cup Final is over, a highlight of one of the U.S. women crying pops on the screen. Elizabeth looks over. She says: "She shouldn't have cried. It's only a game. They tried their best, and they should congratulate the other team. Crying makes them look like poor sports."
I am not sure what to say to her about this. These are multi-layered emotions, I think, the stuff that covers winning and losing. There are those who think winning is the whole point, and they're not necessarily wrong. There are those who think joyous competition is the whole point, and they're not necessarily wrong either. People have different ideas of sportsmanship, of competitiveness, of the ways to handle defeat. When I was Elizabeth's age, I would not eat when the Cleveland Browns lost. I could not sleep. On Fridays before games, I would feel anxiety all through school. On Mondays after defeats, I would feel sick. It wasn't healthy -- I'm sure I understood that even then -- but it was what I knew. It was who I was then. My very nature built around whether or not Brian Sipe could bring the Browns back in the final minutes.
Elizabeth doesn't feel that way. She loved watching women play sports on television. She got into the story of Japan because she has a good little heart. She was happy for the winner, and a touch sad for the loser, but in the end I think she figured that all that really mattered was that they got to play this great game in front of so many people, that they got to show off the skills they had developed over a lifetime of practice, that they all tried their best. Maybe that pushes against our sports society. Maybe that's not how we treat men's sports. Maybe that cuts against our notion of the importance of winnings. But it makes complete sense to her. And ... well ... why shouldn't she feel that way? What's wrong with enjoying the game, appreciating the moment, celebrating the winner without diminishing the loser?
I don't know. It's a tough one. But it was interesting ... I ended up feeling that odd but remarkable feeling a parent sometimes feels. I did not have a thing to teach her about winning and losing. She taught me.
Circle me Mighty Casey.
ReplyDeleteRemind her of this if she ever bursts into tears when something she's been trying so hard to achieve doesn't end up happening.
ReplyDeleteTears aren't about winning or losing but the emotional payout of the investment.
To quote rob stark from game of thrones...
ReplyDelete"Wars are easy, daughters are hard."
It's a pointless thing, but every good Twins fan can tell you that Justin Morneau actually won the Home Run Derby Starring Josh Hamilton. It's a sore point for some.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, thanks for the post. It tied together quite nicely.
frightwig, you beat me to it. But then again, I'm a die-hard fan of MN sports, with an overdeveloped sense of both provincialism and insecurity due to a mass amount of state athletic failure.
ReplyDeleteLittle Big League, that's another that ends with a loss.
ReplyDelete"Remind her of this if she ever bursts into tears when something she's been trying so hard to achieve doesn't end up happening."
ReplyDeleteIt's a good point, but, well, DON'T REMIND HER OF THIS. What kind of a sick father would do that?
I'd be more inclined to believe that the US was a superior team if more than two of their players could make shots INSIDE the posts rather than on or over the posts, and if the coach had not kept one of the two off the field for half the game, and if they had shown any capability of defending in front of the goal. The shootout utterly exemplified the incompetent shooting on the day.
ReplyDeleteI understand the point you're trying to make, but I think your use of "Major League" was a poor example. The viewer has no way of knowing when watching the original movie for the first time that they don't win the World Series. The movie ends with them winning their one game playoff against the Yankees. Only at the beginning of "Major League 2" do we find out that they indeed got swept by the White Sox in the ALCS.
ReplyDeleteExcellent post otherwise.
Is it true women's basketball players can shoot now? The last time I gave it a chance, the percentages were horrible, and the solid execution turning into nothing was driving me crazy.
ReplyDeleteA couple of other things though.
ReplyDeleteI don't really understand why you dislike the intentional walk so much. It's certainly cowardly, I would agree, and as a Giants fan it certainly bothered me to see Bonds get walked so much late in his career, but how is an intentional walk any different than a pitcher giving the "unintentional-intentional walk" and pitching around hitters, which has been a common practice for decades?
More to the point how is it any different than a basketball team double-teaming the opponent's best scorer, or a football team double-teaming the superstar receiver or for that matter the quarterback refusing to challenge somebody like Darrelle Revis or Nnamdi Asomugha and never throwing to his side of the field? In just about every sport players and coaches make strategic decisions where they decide discretion is the better part of valor in dealing with star players on the other team. I don't see how the intentional walk is so different.
Also, specifically to your idea of turning down the intentional walk, I think that scenario would almost never happen. The very reasons you state for why it's such a terrible idea, statistically to walk somebody on purpose are the same reasons why the hitting team would ever refuse a free base runner. I remember Bonds saying on numerous occasions as saying while he got frustrated at times with walks, he would never turn them down because he understood it was good for the team.
I think the only scenario where a batter would ever refuse a walk is if he was some otherworldly player, somebody like Bonds from 2001-2004 or a Ted Williams or Willie Mays in their primes, somebody like that. People beyond ordinary Hall-of-Famers and true pantheon-level hitters, above 1,100 OPS-type guys.
I'd love to read your thoughts on this...
Three things about the World Cup final. First, the Japanese played to their strengths (stamina, defense) and dominant strategy (play cautiously and take advantage of mistakes) and the Americans mostly (more on that "mostly" shortly) played to theirs (height advantage, set pieces, swarming offense), and the Japanese approach won. I can understand the psychological tendency to feel that if your team was ahead but then lost, they blew it, but Sunday's game played out logically the way those two approaches would naturally match up, and the fact that the American team dominated the first half is an expected part of that.
ReplyDeleteSecond, but related to that, I find it interesting, even odd, that Coach Sundhage didn't come in for some criticism for reining in the attack each time the U.S. had a lead. If your team's main strength involves keeping the ball on the other side of the field, and your goalie is being held together with spit and bandages, KEEP PRESSING YOUR ATTACK!
Third, as someone who, like Elizabeth, was rooting for Japan (my Japanese wife cried tears of joy when her country won), I was disturbed by the way the post-game interviews played out. Yes, there's a language barrier, but apparently nobody considered or perhaps even wanted to work around that. Really, when else have you ever seen the losing team's players completely dominate coverage in the minutes after a magnificent upset? It was horribly chauvinistic in the original meaning of the word.
The US women definitely blew their chances repeatedly in the final game vs Japan - I didn't care all that much but I did watch just because it was so damn hot outside that I needed to stay inside.
ReplyDeleteMost of my emotions are currently tied to the Pirates. There's not much else happening that can take my attention away from the much better Buccos. I realize they probably are not the best team in the NL Central but it's thrilling to see them reawakening baseball interest in the Pittsburgh area.
The idea of refusing a walk is that if you got a second walk in the same at bat, it would be a "double walk", meaning you get to go to 2b.
ReplyDelete"I was disturbed by the way the post-game interviews played out. Yes, there's a language barrier, but apparently nobody considered or perhaps even wanted to work around that. Really, when else have you ever seen the losing team's players completely dominate coverage in the minutes after a magnificent upset? It was horribly chauvinistic in the original meaning of the word."
ReplyDeleteNonsense. The USA players were featured post-game because it was USA coverage!? This happens in every international fixture in the world, nothing chauvinistic about it. When England lost to France in the QFs, the British coverage post-game revolved around the England players. When France lost to USA, the French television showed predominantly French players and so on.
Sundhage deserves criticism (removing Rapinoe, allowing LePeilbet to constantly wander, why didn't Wambach take the first penalty? etc) but it's also not true to say that both teams played exactly the way they wanted to.
Japan simply aren't a "cattivo" style team; they are technically proficient, quick-thinking but small. They were also up against (arguably) the best striker in the world. There is no way that they were somehow allowing the USA to batter them as part of their game plan.
It's a wonderful story for Japan, but let's not pretend that they won because of a superior game plan. The USA lost it; greedy players shot from either bad angles or distance when a simple pass would have led to a goal; a comedy of errors (and luck) led to the equaliser; the USA pulled the same trick - not committing to a style after going a goal up - in extra time; Japan got lucky with the last minute red card; Wambach should have taken the first penalty.
Not because Japan played the whole game according to a superior master plan.
Tend to agree with folks that we are coddling the US women's team a bit. If the mens team had been favored and played like that they would be getting eviscerated by the media. Frankly, their defensive play in the last 45 minutes was a comedy of errors and awful decision making (clearing the ball up the middle of the field right in front of your goal?). Soccer teams in the US have an awful habit of sugar-coating everything and not looking objectively at their performances. Next time the men's team gets trounced just listen to the laundry list of sports cliches they throw out:
ReplyDeleteLearning experience
We grew as a team
I thought we really gelled out there
Gave it our best
It was a great experience.
Ugh. Listen, the men's team simply isn't very good period, but especially on the attack and the women's defense utterly collapsed and was a showcase of poor decision-making with the ball.
I love the idea of turning down a walk, especially because there is just the idea that the following scenario could play out-
ReplyDeleteGame 7 of the world series, scoreless in the 7th-8th inning, Cole Hamels pitching against the Red Sox, Pedroia doubles with two outs and Adrian Gonzalez could come up and draw a walk after an eight pitch PA then decline the walk and in effect say to Hamels- "I beat you in that PA, but I didn't beat you hard enough. I'm going to beat you with a hit this time." That would be incredible drama.
Expanding on my previous comment.
ReplyDeletehttp://joeposnanski.blogspot.com/2011/07/meditation-on-world-cup-final.html?showComment=1311052773377#c5570462753669867423
It's not about teaching winning or losing but about teaching effort and compassion. Everyone cries when their tournament is over. For most teams, this is after a loss. For one team, it's after a win. Movies about winners who still lose are appealing because it's the human experience. Try hard, do your best, overachieve, invest yourself, and there's still someone better than you...
You can always go Homer Simpson and not try. But it's better to understand and sympathize with the effort and know that you're crying because you gave it your all and now it's over.
What I would have told her is "the only reason these athletes were able to get to the level they have reached is because of a burning desire to win. To them, that is rightfully all that matters. That is the goal when they put in thousands upon thousands of grueling hours of workouts in their effort to reach this point. This is what the workouts were for. They wanted to WIN the world cup more than anything in the world. To get this close and fall short, well it is absolutely no surprise that some tears were shed after the finish. And rightfully so. They will look back and think about what might have been and how close they were the rest of their life. This is more than just a game, its about completing a mission, its about not letting your teammates down, the teammates that have left their heart and soul out there, and its about realizing a dream. Elizabeth, please do not minimize that."
ReplyDeleteI think a good lesson for kids would be to try and figure out what a "winner" would do if they were on the US women's soccer team and just lost the World Cup final. I believe they would congratulate the Japanese team and own up to their mistakes. But they would also admit how fun it was to be in the World Cup and what a great game that was. And then they would go back to the practice field and try to win next time around.
ReplyDeleteAaronstampler-
ReplyDeleteI think the difference between an IBB and double-covering LeBron or Randy Moss is that an IBB is dictated. In other words, you have no options. You don't have the option of finding a cutting Dwyane Wade for an alley-oop, or hitting Wes Welker over the middle as Moss stretches the coverage downfield. You have to take your base.
And in certain situations, say, runners on 2nd and 3rd with less than 2 outs, I can think of a lot of hitters for whom it would be a good idea to refuse a walk.
Not coincidentally, these are the same situations and hitters that commonly result in intentional walks. When it's in the best interest of the defense to walk someone, wouldn't it therefore be in the best interest of the offense not to take that walk?
"Really, when else have you ever seen the losing team's players completely dominate coverage in the minutes after a magnificent upset?"
ReplyDeleteThis happens almost every time you watch local coverage of a major local sports event. I grew up in Kansas City. Every time the Chiefs lost a playoff game the post game coverage would focus entirely on the Chiefs. (I presume this is why Lin Elliot is more known in KC than Cary Blanchard.) Now I live in Los Angeles. When the Lakers lose a playoff series, the post game news focuses entirely on the Lakers. USA vs. Japan was local sports coverage writ large.
It irks me a little when people say things like the losing team was "clearly superior". The losing team is often better at key aspects of a game, but the winning team is always better at achieving the object of the game. Hitting the bar and the posts does not make you a better team. Scoring goals makes you the better team. Except in cases of egregious, game-changing blown calls the winning team is always the better team on that day.
ReplyDeleteAlso don't totally agree that a men's team would be held to a different standard. We're talking about a WC final here. If the USMNT ever makes a WC final they could get beat 15-0 and the reaction here would be that it was astonishing they played in the game at all.
I'm not actually sure why winning really IS that important. I mean, i get pissed when my team loses, for sure, but why?
ReplyDeleteIf my team practices well, trains hard, executes, plays brilliantly ... And loses, then whynshould I be disappointed. The only answer I can think of is because it makes ME feel like a loser. It makes ME feel inadequate.
I think what Joe is dancing around here is "shouldn't the magnificence of athletic achievement be the thing we truly celebrate." in this way we root for our team, enjoy the thrill of competition, but let go of the idea that our team MUST win for some sort of validation to occur.
This is a radical thought inside sports fan culture - and it's not something I'm quite ready to embrace ... but maybe it should be.
I think that most fans do celebrate when they see something that is truly magnificent, even if their rooting interest comes up on the losing side. How many Americans were truly upset when Usain Bolt beat the hell out of our guys in the 100m in Beijing? I suspect that number was dwarfed by those who were just awed to see such an incredible performance.
ReplyDeleteMost performances obviously don't rise to that inspiring level where we can just appreciate the accomplishment in itself. Usually in elite-level competition the margin between victory and defeat is razor thin, and so when our side loses we focus on why we could/should have won rather than appreciating the performance of the winner.
I was reading along towards the end and thinking Elizabeth was teaching you about winning and losing, and then you said it. She's a cool kid.
ReplyDeleteJoe, it seems to me that many of your readers need to spend more time with Elizabeth. I think they missed your point and more importantly, it sure feels as though they missed hers. And not just off the crossbar, they missed WAAYYY wide.
ReplyDeleteMany beloved war movies end in defeat too. The 54th doesn't take Fort Wagner in Glory. William Wallace is executed with the Scots far from freedom. Gallipoli ends in slaughter for the Aussies. In A Bridge Too Far the bridge is too far. But in each case there is more at stake than the battle. Maybe the same applies here too?
ReplyDeleteAlso, intellectually I agree with Margo about patronizing the US women, but emotionally I can't consider them chokers...
You're right-on about ROCKY. That locker room scene just before the fight, where Rocky admits he can't beat Creed, is amazing. It hijacks all the momentum of "Gonna Fly Now" like a slap in the face, forcing the audience to see this guy not as a cartoon, but as a human being fighting to lose with dignity.
ReplyDeleteFunny thing about winning. A nobody named Stallone fought to keep that scene in his movie, achieved a huge success ... and never again reached those heights as a film maker. One can only wonder about the movies we might have seen if Stallone had lost gamely like his character.
In championships, I almost always feel sorry for the team that almost makes it. I have been in that position, where I gave my all but it wasn't quite enough. In some ways, finishing second feels worse than finishing last, because you came so close to your goal.
ReplyDeleteI am not sure if the "patronizing" attitude was because they were women. I think it may have been because of the sport. While the US team was considered championship caliber, there was still worry that they would not even make the semifinals. We still have, despite the US women owning a world cup championship, a feeling of inferiority in soccer.
I think the most recent US men's world cup team was treated with a similar "nice try" attitude, while the 2008 women's olympic softball team (who were expected to win easily) was not.
There are multiple reasons for the intentional walk. Would you rather go with Sal "The Barber" Maglie and just plunk the guy? That saves three pitches (good for the pitcher) but risks injury (bad for baseball). If walks could be declined, in high leverage at bats involving guys who should be walked, pitchers would then nibble away endlessly, giving Pujols nothing good to hit, until he finally made a swing at a bad ball (or the pitcher made a mistake).
ReplyDeleteI would definitely walk Pujols with the World Series on the line if it gave me a .01% increased chance of victory. Hell, Pujols might exhaust my pitcher otherwise; a four pitch at bat is not nearly as bad a result as a ten pitch walk with many foul balls. If baseball was played like football, the goal would be to injure the star hitter, so one fastball towards the elbow both gives the intentional walk and has a decent shot at reducing the star's ability to play. I'd take an IW over an injury any day.
I would rather my team won on a bad call than lose on a good call. Come on; it's my team! You saying there weren't other calls made the wrong way? But if you gave me the choice of a series with zero bad calls and a series with the only bad calls favoring my team (and not tell me my team NEEDED the bad calls to win) I'd pick the well umped series. But if the bad call that was going to give my team the win was reversible, and it was bad, then I'd want it reversed. Am I splitting hairs? Yes. But with today's technology, I'll take the win and the bad call so that next year more kinds of calls can be reviewed.
Let me ask a different question: would you rather your team lose on a bad call, or just lose? I think most of us would rather feel jobbed by a bad call than just get outplayed.
So yes, I think there are choices.
It would be idiocy to ever refuse the IBB. As Tommy Lasorda (and many others) have pointed out, even the best hitters fail 7/10 times. If you refuse the IBB you have a 70% chance of failing. Why would you trade in a free base for a 70% chance of failure? Yes, for those of you in your mothers' basements, I know that we can look at specific players in specific situations and find that their success rate is better than 30%, but the wisdom still holds.
ReplyDelete"If you like NASCAR, follow NASCAR. If you don't, don't."
ReplyDeleteyou haven't been in Carolina long enough yet have you? :)
Sports injuries said: It would be idiocy to ever refuse the IBB. If you refuse the IBB you have a 70% chance of failing. Why would you trade in a free base for a 70% chance of failure?
ReplyDeleteWhen the free base means nothing to the offense (say, winning run already on 3rd) and benefits the defense's chances (i.e. sets up a force). Bonus points if the intentional walk brings up an inferior hitter.
You don't account for the fact that the NEXT hitter is going to fail at least 70% of the time as well, except now a double play and additional force outs are possibilities.
SportsInjuries, is it necessary to trot out the tired "mothers' basement" trope? It seems unnecessarily insulting.
ReplyDeleteAgreed.
ReplyDeletePears are much more delicious than apples. They are significantly less convenient.
ReplyDelete"Is it true women's basketball players can shoot now? The last time I gave it a chance, the percentages were horrible"
ReplyDeleteNot, it's not true, which is no big deal, just a little odd to read on this particular blog. Anyway, in D1 hoops last year, men took about 180,000 3s to about 160,000 for the women...men shot 34.8% and women just 32.1%. Going back to 2010 yields virtually identical numbers.
The most delicious fruit poll is missing a key contender. I won't tell you what it is but I can tell you that life is just a bowl of them......
ReplyDeleteJoe, you tweeted that you are headed to Pittsburgh. I'm sure you've been there many times but if you need any recs give me a shout. That's my hometown. Glad to hear you are headed there. Bucs are by far the best story in the league this year.
ReplyDeleteThere's just one thing about women's basketball that tends to get me; it's got nothing to do with it being a different game, but everything to do with it being more poorly played, in general. They also play with a slightly-smaller ball than the men, which in theory should make it easier to handle the ball and make shots.
ReplyDeleteThe biggest use of the intentional base on balls is not trying to avoid Albert Pujols or Miguel Cabrera. The majority are issued to No. 8 hitters in the NL to bring up the pitcher's spot. Through Tuesday, NL teams averaged 26.8 IBB per team while AL clubs averaged 19.6. Only the Brewers and Diamondbacks have issued fewer than 21 IBB this season, while seven AL teams are below that number (the Red Sox have given only six IBB this season). Five NL teams have issued 30 or more IBB; only the White Sox have topped that mark in the AL.
ReplyDeleteAmong the leaders in IBB in the NL are Gerardo Parra (9), Carlos Ruiz (6), Daniel Descalso (6) and James Loney (5), all primarily No. 7 or 8 hitters. (Pujols has walked just four times.)
The "mothers' basement" comment is not meant to be insulting, it is more of an homage to Joe's post on that topic. After reading it, I now think of that every time a statistical analysis comes up.
ReplyDeleteAs for the inferior hitter argument, I did think of that after I hit "post comment." I suppose where the only run that matters is the runner on third and the player on deck is a significantly inferior hitter, then maybe a team would refuse the IBB.
Of course, if that rule were instituted what happens after the refusal? Also, recognizing that a refusal would be a possibility in those situations, I think pitchers would just throw four balls with the catcher squatting behind home plate.
Suppose a hitter could reject any walk. After balls the hitter can take his base or have the number of balls reset in the AB. the Strike count stays the same. Ex.
ReplyDeletePujols at the plate with RISP (2nd and 3rd). Ball 4 is thrown on a 3-1 count. Pujols rejects the base and now the count is 0-1.
the AB continues....
Sports injuries, if you are citing the post I believe you are (3/18/11), the close of that post includes this: "that bit is ancient, and it's dumb, and consigning the person you disagree with into their mother's basement is just admitting you've run out of arguments."
ReplyDeleteI don't know how you can think that using the phrase is somehow an homage to Joe, when he specifically says it's insulting.
One of the running jokes on the old "MST3k" show was when Joel or one of the robots would watch a cheesy low-budget Fifties sci-fi flick and say, "You know, this is really just like 'Star Wars,' except that it isn't any good.'" Or they'd see some awful, dubbed Steve Reeves sword-and-sandal flick then quip, "This is really just like 'Julius Caesar,' except not good."
ReplyDeleteWith one big exception (tennis at Wimbledon), that's generally been my reaction to women's sports. Women's tennis at Wimbledon still has a lot of rallying, which makes it very different from (and, in my opinion, MUCH more fun to watch than) the men's game.
Other than that, when I see a WNBA or women's soccer game, I think "This is just like the men's game, only not good."
Where are blackberries?!?
ReplyDeleteThe stuff about women's basketball featuring better outside shooting, passing, and fundamentals is pretty much demonstrably untrue and I've never understood why people are so intent on insisting otherwise. It's always struck me as kind of patronizing.
ReplyDeleteYes, the first half of the 2010 NCAA women's title game was dreadful. But some women's b-ball is great entertainment. UToledo's run to the WNIT title, for example: great defense, clever play-making, lots of heart.
ReplyDeleteAnd half the teams lose in any competition. If they play well and compete hard, who cares if they lose? Overemphasis on winning leads to recruiting violations, eligibility scams, point-shaving, etc. Elizabeth and Joe have this right.
OK, I'll try one more time. It's an homage because I agree with the post. The mothers' basement comment is used tongue in cheek when referring to statistical baseball analysis. I realize there is no tone when reading, but people must really learn not to take comments on a blog so seriously. I will continue to use the mothers' basement (as Joe does) when appropriate. When you read it, take a deep breath, put London Calling on the turntable, and realize that whether you are writing from your mother's basement, your own basement, or in a building that doesn't even have a basement, I am not intending to offend, merely to bring a smile to my face, and perhaps some others. I hope I have lowered your blood pressure.
ReplyDeleteThe crying comment made me think of the one playoff game we had during my high school football career. Since we had only that one playoff game we obviously lost and I remember most of the team balling their eyes out. Our hearts were shredded. You get over those sports disappoints quickly but they never go away.
ReplyDeleteI would vote:
ReplyDeletePear
Banana
Raspberry
I'm shocked that my top 2 are at the bottom of the list.
"It would be idiocy to ever refuse the IBB. If you refuse the IBB you have a 70% chance of failing. Why would you trade in a free base for a 70% chance of failure?"
ReplyDeleteI disagree with the old adage that even the best players fail 70%. It is true that the best players fail to get a hit between 60% and 70% of the time, but failing to get a hit is not equivalent to failure. If you refuse the IBB and get walked again anyways, that doesn't do anything for your batting average but it's not exactly failure. One good thing about On Base Percentage is that it takes into account ALL of your plate appearances. If you really fail to get on base in 70% of your plate appearances, then you'd have a .300 OBP, and you'd definitely not be considered one of the best players of all time. I'd say the best players fail only 50-60% of the time.
To the untrained football eye, our women looked like they were dominating large portions of the game. They Schottenheimered it when they got the lead both times by playing not to lose when the go ahead goals were scored.
ReplyDeleteI'll never understand why coaches of teams in all sports, men and women, will Marty up the game with a lead clearly in reach of the opposition by taking their foot off of the proverbial gas pedal shortly after dominating nearly all aspect with the exception of the scoreboard.
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ReplyDeleteNowadays, you must never underestimate women, they are excelling in sports especially soccer and basketball.
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