Well, I just found out that this year I have an American League MVP vote. This means that I will spend the next six weeks or so in a constant state of panic as I break down every candidate game-by-game, out-by-out, until I fill out my ballot or go insane, whichever comes first.
I have been coming around to a new way of thinking about the MVP for a few years now. I would say that 15 years ago, I was as traditional about the award as anyone. I bought entirely into the idea that the word "valuable" meant something different from the word "productive." Those words are synonyms, but I believed in the lofty notion that a player -- through his leadership, through his clutch performances, through his RBI totals, through his team's won-loss record (or his own), through his big plays in the most timely moments -- could be significantly more "valuable" than "productive."
The worst MVP choice of the last 20 years was almost certainly Dennis Eckersley in 1992. The guy threw 80 innings all year. In 38 of his admittedly impressive-looking 51 saves, the Athletics won by at least two runs. There was an argument to be made that Eckersley wasn't even the most valuable right-handed relief pitcher in his own division in 1992 -- Jeff Montgomery was probably every bit as good. By Fangraphs WAR, there were more than 100 players in the American League who were more productive than Dennis Eckersley in 1992. I don't know if it's quite that stark … but, yeah, it's pretty stark. That was a big miss.
So why did Eckersley get the MVP vote? Right: It's that word, "Valuable." It shakes the voters. For a few years there, when the save was still a fairly new statistic, writers got it in their heads that the men who closed out victories in the ninth inning were men of magic. Never mind that teams -- with or without designated closers -- have been closing out ninth-inning leads at almost exactly the same percentage since at least the 1950s. Starting around 1980, and culminating with the Eckersley fiasco in 1992, closers got much love in the MVP voting.
1980 (AL): Goose Gossage finishes third.
1981 (AL): Rollie Fingers win the MVP award.
1982 (NL): Bruce Sutter finishes sixth.
1983 (AL): Dan Quisenberry finishes sixth.
1984 (AL): Willie Hernandez wins the MVP award.
1985 (AL): Donnie Moore finishes sixth.
1988 (AL): Dennis Eckersley finishes fifth
1989 (NL): Mark Davis finishes sixth
1989 (AL): Dennis Eckersley finishes fifth
1990 (AL): Bobby Thigpen finishes fifth
1992 (AL): Dennis Eckersley wins the MVP award.
That's mostly when the closer fetish ended. There have been a few other bursts of madness since -- Jose Mesa finished fourth in the MVP voting in 1995 (really, he did), Randy Myers finished fourth in the MVP voting in 1997 (it's true), Eric Gagne finished sixth in 2003, K-Rod finished sixth in 2008.* But generally, it seems like the voters have come to their senses.I don't think a closer or any other part-time player will win another MVP award … unless someone concocts some new narrative that resonates with voters and redefines that concept of "valuable" the way the save did.
*Interesting, I think: The near-unanimous choice for the best closer ever, Mariano Rivera, has never finished higher than ninth in the MVP voting. There's a weird thing that goes on with the Yankees and awards. There's this constant drumbeat about how Yankees players are overrated and over-decorated, but Derek Jeter never won an MVP award, Mariano Rivera never won a Cy Young and was never even close in the MVP, and the only Yankees player to win an MVP award the last 25 years was Alex Rodriguez, who supposedly gets no respect. Strange.
Over time, I've grown less and less interested or bewitched by that word, "valuable." Along the way, I had a fun argument with Bill James about value and poker; I was trying to make the argument that a 7 was more valuable than an ace if it helped complete a hand-winning straight. Bill made the rather definitive point that the ace was, in fact, always more valuable than the seven, and that the ace cannot be held responsible for the lousy cards around it. That had an effect on me. I started learning a bit more about the illusions of the stats that I had held so close throughout my childhood -- stats like batting average and RBIs and wins and so on. I started trying to quantify those vague notions of leadership and guts and all the other things announcers talked about.*
*How in the world, if we don't even know which players used steroids, are we supposed to know which players exhibit great leadership?
And, also, I started to pay closer attention to how little one man, no matter how great, can do for a baseball team. In 2003, Albert Pujols had one of the greatest seasons of the last 25 years. His basic numbers: .359, 51 doubles, 43 homers, 137 runs, 124 RBIs. He played left field and first base, and played them both exceedingly well. He was a phenomenon, though it went almost unnoticed because 2003 was right in the middle of the Barry Bonds' absurdity tour. But my point is not about individual achievement. My point is that Albert Pujols in 2003 was about as good as a player has been … and the Cardinals finished third behind not-especially impressive Houston and Chicago teams. What could Pujols do to change that? Hit for an even higher average? Bang even more home runs? Come through in the clutch even more often?
And directly to the point: What does that have to do with whether or not he's more valuable than another player who isn't nearly as productive?
I've been pulling away from my old way of thinking for a while now. But this year, I'm fully breaking away. I don't think I'm making some kind of bold announcement here, but this year my MVP vote will be based entirely on who I think is the best player in the American League. I'm not giving that word "valuable" any more meaning or consideration than it deserves. I realize that many people disagree with this line of reasoning and still think that valuable means something different, and that the "most valuable player" and "player of the year" are two different things, and that the MVP should be a player who affected the pennant race and come from a team in contention. I hear from these people every week. I'm not saying they are wrong. I'm saying that I'm going a different way. I'm picking the best players, as best I can determine them.
Right now, I firmly believe the best player in the American League is Jose Bautista. And, right now, he's my MVP. There are plenty of good candidates who can catch him -- and most of them are on teams in contention. The Red Sox have Dustin Pedroia and Jacoby Ellsbury, both are having great years. One of my favorite players in the game, Curtis Granderson, is having a marvelous season for the Yankees. Ben Zobrist, one more time, is having the best year nobody's noticing. Miguel Cabrera continues to slug. It's difficult to compare pitchers and hitters, but Justin Verlander has been almost unhittable -- at time actually unhittable -- and others like C.C. Sabathia and the Angels pair of Dan Haren and Jered Weaver are pitching extremely well.
But, for me, it's Bautista by two or three lengths heading into the home stretch. Somebody has to catch him. And, no offense to the quality of leadership or hustle or RBIs or wins or any other sort of unnoticed value, but they're going to have to catch him with production I can see.
I am glad you're voting this way. I think that the spirit of the award began as "best" player and got a bit warped over time.
ReplyDeleteBut you're biased against my favorite team, toward which I'm completely objective!
ReplyDeleteI'm pleased that Joe has written such a lucid piece explaining why he'll vote for the AL's best player as league MVP. Now if only my Blue Jays weren't in such a tough division, we'd have a chance to cheer on Bautista in the playoffs . . .
ReplyDeleteI'm a Jays and Bautista fan, but I think he'll have to get hot down the stretch to win the MVP, otherwise people will just believe he had a great first half. To me it's a three horse race in the AL with Bautista, Ellsbury and Granderson. It's hard to go wrong with any of them.
ReplyDeleteI like the sentiment here, but maybe you moved too far to the other side? I think there's a sliding scale to look at in the middle.
ReplyDeleteLet's take 2008 AL MVP for example. Ben Zobrist has the highest WAR that year, 8.6. Joe Mauer has the second highest at 7.9. Under your theory, Zobrist is the MVP, but Mauer won that year because the Twins made the playoffs. I don't think most voters are considering this level of detail, but there's some reason behind that decision:
The Twins make the playoffs by ONE GAME, where as the Rays finish 11 out of the wildcard. Their records aren't even that different, 87 wins to 84, but the point is: given the value of a Twin win to a Ray's win based on the final outcome of the season, is Mauer's WAR more valuable? And by how much?
This is my stop on the bus, because I don't want to go to the next level and calculate win value based on record, but if I had a vote I might think about it...
First, "valuable" and "productive" aren't really synonyms, not in English anyway.
ReplyDeleteSecond, if I buy your argument, why not go even further?
Actual production in a given season is sensitive to luck, to factors outside a player's control. This includes things like bloop singles falling in and line drives getting caught (hence the interest in BABIP); it also includes things like injuries and distracting contract negotiations. Because of this, the most productive player in a given season might not really be the best, just as the most productive player in an individual game might not be the best.
And the award should be for the *best* player right, not just the most productive? Otherwise you're rewarding luck. You're just as bad as those voters who focus on RBI.
Based on this analysis, my NL MVP for 2011 is Albert Pujols. True, he's not even in the top 10 in WAR this year. But it's myopic to look at a single season when you're trying to determine which player is really most "valuable"--that is, best. Pujols' track record over the last 10 seasons gives us every reason to think he's still probably the best in the league. Therefore, he's my 2011 NL MVP. In fact, even if he had spent all of 2011 on the DL, he still would have been my 2011 MVP.
I like it. Once you cross the word "valuable" off the award and insert some other word instead, MVP voting gets interesting.
Good choice Joe.
ReplyDeleteI'm not in favor of removing context completely from MVP consideration. For example, in the sabermetric zeal to show that clutch hitting is not a reliably repeatable skill by individual players, it tends to be overlooked that clutch hitting does in fact occur, and that some players did in fact perform better than others in those situations in the season just completed.
ReplyDeleteThat's why my advanced stat of choice for the purpose of awarding the MVP is not WAR, but WPA (Win Probability Added). WPA contextualizes individual performance, and the best player in a vacuum (what WAR purports to calculate) is not always the player whose efforts most consistently lead to team victory (or, rather, most enhance a team's chances of victory).
Certainly there are years when one player is so clearly better than the rest that it's not necessary to look any further. But if that issue is at least in some doubt, I'd go looking for what each candidate did in high-leverage situations.
I have to disagree with Bill concerning the 7 vs. the Ace. "Value" is context-sensitive IMO. In a vacuum, a $500K house is more valuable than a $150K house. But if that $500K house is in Alaska, and the buyer is looking for houses in Hawaii, that $500K house in Alaska has no value to him.
ReplyDeleteIf we were to go strictly by Bill's argument, why even have a voting for MVP? Why not just let all-encompassing stats like fWAR and rWAR determine who's the MVP or not?
To me, being on a playoff team is nothing more than a tiebreaker for top players who have essentially identical WARs. If, say, Ellsbury ends up with a WAR of 8.0 and makes the playoffs with the Sox while Bautista puts up an 8.1 WAR with the 3rd place Jays, maybe I'd be tempted to give it Ellsbury for putting up his numbers in more crucial situations. But that's it. Otherwise, it's the top player all the way, and the only reason I wouldn't give it to the top is if he pulled a Cabrera and was clearly detrimental to the team.
ReplyDeleteI'm trying to parse "pulling a Cabrera"...not working especially well.
ReplyDeleteI'm a firm believer that the MVP has to be from a team that is, at the very least, good. The Blue Jays are good (just not good enough). Bautista has made them good. I'd vote for him too.
ReplyDeleteIt's like Joe's movie scale. Who is responsible for making something better than it should be? Will Smith made an average movie ( I am Legend) good. Well, Bautista made an average team good.
As other people have said, if you do this, you're essentially saying that you're just going to pick the guy with the best WAR and that's your MVP. You say we can't quantify leadership, but what about pressure? You can't argue that Justin Verlander, pitching after a loss in most of his starts, has more pressure on him than Jose Bautista, who won't be blamed for his team missing the playoffs. Surely this has to be taken into consideration for the MVP. Meanwhile, a lot of the guys in great lineups are also not facing as much pressure. For me, that's what valuable means. It means facing the heat of your team's failures and factoring that into consideration. That's why Verlander, in my mind, should be the MVP.
ReplyDeleteUmmmm, Briansim, that is terrible logic and completely separate. The context is always the same in poker. In Slapjack, your argument might hold water, or if you're just playing "cards" their values might be relative. But in poker, they clearly are not.
ReplyDeleteAnd Justin, it appears you are merely applying "luck" to every occurrence on a baseball field. Verlander has been lucky this season in that his fingers weren't a millimeter more to the left or right on that blistering fastball. And you are correct, Pujols has been the "best" player in baseball over the past ten years, his WAR attests to that. But Joe isn't helping decide that, he is helping decide who gets the award in 2011. Who is the most productive player in 2011? Jose Bautista. Last I checked, MLB or BBWAA, don't officially give any awards based on ten years of production, just ask Dale Bryan Murphy.
The holes in your logic are astounding. Your play with words is incredulous. If you don't want to define "best" as "most productive," then what would you offer? Luckiest? Joe is voting on MLP, Most Lucky Player? How can we know who is dealing with contract negotiations, a heat wave, a child's birth, a hole in his sock, his mortgage, his concern about his beer-drinking buddy clearing waivers, his bloop fly ball that would have fallen for a single had Bourjos not been playing center that day. Really? Really? That is your retort to Joe basing his choice of Jose Bautista?
You clearly understand the definition of the word, "myopic," here's to hoping you soon understand most productive player and asinine flaws in logic...
This isn't directly relevant, but...
ReplyDeleteI think the only 5th-place MVP ever was Ernie Banks of the 1958 Cubs, who went 72-82. The Braves went 92-62 to win the league.
Hank Aaron (of the Braves) actually had more Win Shares than Banks, although no-one knew that at the time.
On the other hand, Banks had a far better WPA, although no-one knew that at the time. But I'm guessing that the voters noticed Banks building up his WPA, even if they didn't call it that.
"My point is that Albert Pujols in 2003 was about as good as a player has been … and the Cardinals finished third behind not-especially impressive Houston and Chicago teams. What could Pujols do to change that? "
ReplyDeleteI'll be shocked if you don't know this one already, but what they hey? Ralph Kiner to Branch Rickey, after leading the league in homers for the 7th straight year in 1952: Give me a raise. Rickey to Kiner: "'Son,' he said in that stentorian voice which gave him instant command of every conversation, 'we could have finished last without you.'" http://goo.gl/koAxQ
Joe votes for Mauer in 2009 ten million times out of ten million. Like, his place on a playoff team had little to do with it. I'm pretty sure that it was because he won the Modern Triple Crown.
ReplyDeleteAlso, again, the problem with just picking the guy with the most WAR, has NOTHING to do with who was on the better team. Like, again, Mauer in 2009. Joe voted for Mauer in spite of the fact that he missed the first month of the season. Final marginal WAR totals are about playing time, or fluky fielding. But that's not really relevant because Joe didn't say a thing about WAR. Like, the argument for Bautista starts with .459 OBP and 198 OPS+, and multi-positional value, and ONE-HUNDRED AND NINETY-EIGHT OPS+ (a figure currently higher than any ever reached by Albert Pujols or Joe DiMaggio or Carl Yastrzemski or Gary Sheffield or Rickey Henderson or Hank Aaron and tons of others in the Greatest Hitters Ever category).
Verlander's going to win the Cy Young; everyone is okay with it. He has not been better than Bautista.
Hey Ebessan, I am the same person who posted the thing about Verlander above. Your reasoning is sharp. I'm not going to be upset with anyone who votes for Bautista, he's having a magnificent campaign. I just don't agree with the idea that we should take the stats in a total vacuum and that's who we give the MVP to. I feel the point behind letting sportswriters be the ones who vote for MVP is that they know things about these players beyond what you can learn from a reading a BR page or Fangraphs chart. Whether or not the sportswriters actually execute this the way they should (with research and investigation) is not something I'm going to argue. But Joe is basically arguing that the most productive player should be the MVP, and I don't think that's quite right.
ReplyDeleteIf we're attempting to measure value, seems to me one of the first questions we should ask is what is our unit of value? In my opinion, the only satisfactory answer to this is that our unit of value is wins. An alternative unit would be some measurement of contention. An extreme version of this is to say that the only thing that is valuable is the post season and so any player on a team that fails to make the post season has essentially no value.
ReplyDeleteHowever, as fans we certainly expect teams to try to win even when the post season is not at stake; we would be terribly offended if the Oriles and Mariners played in September like they just didn't care at all whether they won or not. If we acept that all players should strive to win at all times, then I think it follows that all wins have value, even ones for non-contending teams.
If we accept that all wins are equal, then the success of a player's team is only of slight importance; a player who helps a team win 80 games instead of 72 is superior to a player who helps a team win 93 games instead of 87. Of course if a team is extremely unsuccessful it becomes less plausible to attribute much value to any one player; we might imagine an extreme case where a team went 7-155. I think it's fair to say that no player on such a team could be the most valuable in the league.
This is the long way around to me saying I almost completely agree with Joe. Absent a few extreme cases, the best player in the league is also the most valuable.
On another topic, has anyone ever observed that whenever anyone makes the distinction between best player and most valuable, they act like they are making some subtle, clever point that no one has ever thought of before? Drives me crazy.
Bautista is clearly a viable choice for MVP. However, I agree with the commenter who said if it comes down to a tie between Pedroia and Bautsita, Pedroia gets it because he plays under pressure. Bautista does not. Same thing with Pedroia. If he finishes tied with someone on a team in a tight race (we know Red Sox and Yankees are going to make the playoffs), the nod goes to the player in the tighter race.
ReplyDeleteThe way I think about the MVP is this: If there were a hypothetical re-draft for the season, and each player you drafted would perform identically to how they actually performed during the year (hitting, fielding, clutchiness, leadership, health, etc), which player would you take if you got to pick first? If WAR were a perfect measure, maybe the choice would be as simple as taking whoever had the highest WAR. However, based on the way things currently are, I think there is plenty of room for reasonable people to disagree as to who they would choose first in such a draft.
ReplyDeleteThere's a problem with WAR, though: it's context sensitive. You think it's not? Consider Matt Kemp. He bats fourth on a team with perhaps the weakest #5 hitters in baseball. He gets no protection, so compared to other cleanup hitters he is facing fewer strikes. That's context sensitive. Take it a step further, and WAR is to an extent a counting stat. A player on an offensive powerhouse might get as many as 30 extra plate appearances over a player on an awful offense (not pulling that number out of my ear, I went to B-Ref and did some team PA totals). Those 30 extra PA will add to WAR for good players. That means that the Red Sox, who lead the majors in runs/game and PA/game also lead the majors in tired pitchers against them and most opportunities for sluggers to build up their WAR totals. The Blue Jays and Yankees are also doing quite well in both categories.
ReplyDeleteSo I am strongly opposed to just using WAR for MVP. I have no objection to voting for a player on a last place team, but there is more stress on players in a pennant race, more distractions from national media, and thus inherently more value. If I were to try and come up with some formulas, they'd be weighted something like this:
101 minus total WAR rank league wide, times 0.5. Maximum value - 0.50
101 minus percentage of team's WAR rank (wouldn't the most valuable player be the one with the highest percentage of his team's WAR?), times 0.1. Maximum value - 0.10
Add .05 to players whose teams were within 3 games of the playoffs on 9/15 or later
(and I know this number is unfair to pitchers) - Add 17/15 (AL/NL) - team's rank in PA, representing opportunities to increase WAR, times 0.03. Maximum value - 0.03
Add 0.01 for leading the league this season in positive counting stats: Runs, Hits, RBI, doubles, triples, homers, steals, OPS+. Yes, these will already factor into WAR, but I think if you are the best in the league at doing something good, you deserve a slight boost. Maximum value: 0.08 (for somebody who probably is a clear cut MVP already).
Add .01 for every season this player has finished in the top ten in MVP voting, top 10 in WAR+, top 3 in position defensive rating by your favorite rater, or made an All-Star team, without ever having won an MVP award yet. Possible max could be substantial for a guy who is a clear cut HOFer who never won an MVP. Yes, this is like the Karl Malone MVP, but I believe that once your bar is high, you need to be even better to keep on winning. Plus since Heymans keep on citing MVP votes and CYA votes for HOF membership, it's best to spread these around a bit more.
Add .01 for every Player of the Week or Player of the Month award earned this season.
Add or subtract up to .05 for perceived greatness, personal preference, steroid use, signing kids' autographs, etc. I mean, if you're an MVP voter, go ahead and give Kuiper his .05. It won't be enough to get him elected.
Waddya think?
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ReplyDeleteGoing off what you're saying, it's clear that Bautista is drawing a lot of walks because there is no one any good hitting behind him. He has 103 walks. If you were to reduce that to 66 (Granderson's walk total) and give him singles, doubles, and homers at his current rates (with those extra 37 at bats) his OPS drops about 50 points. If I remember correctly, OPS+ is weighted to give OBP more credit (since OPS is too crude by itself) so the drop in OPS+ is probably pretty dramatic. Yes, it's still an awesome season, and obviously its possible that Bautista would walk that much on the Yankees, but at least we get out of this "better than any season by the all time greats" nonsense.
ReplyDeleteAgain, Bautista is a great hitter who has a great, if not the best case for MVP. But to compare him to an incorruptible playing card is definitely flawed and team context is important.
Just to clarify I compared him to Granderson because I feel Curtis is another MVP candidate who historically has had a pretty good eye. Bautista leads the majors with 18 free passes (which doesn't include "unintentional intentional walks" and any situation where a pitcher is extra cautious around Bautista because he knows he has a much better shot at getting Adam Lind out) Granderson has 0 intentional walks. Suffice to say if pitchers could pitch around him or Adrian Gonzalez like they can pitch around Bautista, the stats would be much closer.
I struggle with this and am glad I don't have the opportunity to vote.
ReplyDeleteFor me, I want to be able to look back at the historical list of MVPs and have each winner provide some sort of context to the season.
Maybe the player had a great year on a playoff team, maybe not. If he wasn't on a playoff team, I think the year needs to be pretty darn special.
As I write this, I am setting myself up for the ole East Coast Bias. I was about to use Tulowitzki as an example of someone I wouldn't want as NL MVP as neither his season, nor the rockies have been transcending. I suppose I base that on never hearing much about the guy which is weak.
For the AL, I feel a little better wading into the Bautista debate. As a Blue Jay fan in Canada, I have seen my fair share of the guy. I think he may have stalled just enough since the break to let Granderson sneak past him.
Great decision, Joe! And an excellent summary of how the AL MVP race stands. (One of the few) truly deserving of your vote.
ReplyDeleteIt's amazing that the Texas Rangers are so good this year without any serious MVP or Cy Young candidates. Who would have guessed that the top THREE Rangers non-pitchers in WAR do not include either Josh Hamilton or Michael Young? (Can you name them without looking it up?)
ReplyDeleteAs for the WAR-MVP connection, here is a test for Joe and the rest of us too: Look up the 1995 AL leader in WAR. Does he get your MVP vote?
Beltre, Kinsler, Napoli.
ReplyDeleteI feel like Kinsler is one of the most underrated players in baseball, because he's never topped 144 games in a season, and positional glut (which really shouldn't apply on a key defensive position, but oh well). But he's always great when he's there. He's in the middle of a season where he can't buy a single and is still super Productive (word of the day).
Also, I always love a trade that ends up with a team who misjudged someone we know to be great holding the bag and it directly shows on their record. Like, obviously the Angels didn't know that their division combatant were going to end up with Napoli, and that he'd put up a 156 OPS+, and that Kendrys would end up hurt again. And they're probably going to regress even further so it won't matter, anyway. But, uh, RIGHT NOW, Napoli genuinely is the difference between leading the division and being second. And that's bliss.
ReplyDeleteAs a writer and coach, the semantics of this issue are very interesting. The words “most valuable”, “best”, and “most productive” may seem to mean much the same thing, but there are differences to a coach.
ReplyDeleteSometimes the most valuable player on a team is not the best player or the most productive (as measured by raw stats). It is the person who does the most to help the team win, or have the opportunity to win, on a consistent basis. Often, though, that comes in a form that is not measurable by stats – heads up baserunning that puts him scoring position, backing up a play that prevents an overthrow from leading to another base, a positive attitude in the clubhouse that keeps the team from folding in the late innings when they’re down by a few runs.
Sometimes the best player isn’t the most productive or the most valuable. He may have all the tools but through a bad attitude, or a niggling injury doesn’t make the most of it.
A player can also be the most productive without being the most valuable or the best. He may have an outstanding statistical game, then struggle for a few games where he contributes little, then another outstanding game, then struggle again. The big games make the numbers add up but there are a lot of games where he doesn’t contribute much.
Most of the time, the best player will be the most productive and the most valuable. But you certainly could have three different players from the same team fit each of those titles.
This is the case, at least, at the high school level where I coach. But I’ve talked to enough college coaches and even a few in the professional ranks to think that these definitions hold true at the major league level as well.
I'm in agreement with Joe. This whole "Valuable" is different from "best" or "outstanding" argument completely breaks down when you start picking MVPs for a single game or even a series. Has anyone debated that a given Super Bowl MVP didn't deserve it because he had too many great players around him? No, everyone knows that a game's MVP means the best player in the game. But for some reason everything changes when it's stretched over a season...
ReplyDeleteWhat bothers me most about the word "value" is that, for some reason, voters have decided that that primarily means players on contenders, preferably those that don't dominate over the course of the season.
ReplyDeleteIf a player on a bad team is the difference between 75 and 65 wins, isn't he worthy of the award? I know some argue that the "heat of the pennant race" effects the argument, but I don't buy it, unless you think that pretty much all professional players begin dogging it once their team is out of contention.
Good article, Joe. I think, for the most part, Most Productive and Most Valuable are one and the same.
@Regan: "Has anyone debated that a given Super Bowl MVP didn't deserve it because he had too many great players around him? No, everyone knows that a game's MVP means the best player in the game."
ReplyDeleteNo, everyone knows that a game's MVP means the best QUARTERBACK OR RUNNING BACK OR (sometimes) WIDE RECEIVER in the game. I'm a Giants fan - please try to convince me that Eli Manning deserved that MVP more than Justin Tuck. I will never buy it.
The problem I have with the idea of using team placement as a tie breaker in a close race is that it really comes back to the poker analogy: you're assigning more value based on what's around him.
ReplyDeleteSay that Bautista ends the season at 8 WAR and Pedroia at 7.8. We'll call Bautista an ace and Pedroia a king (he's clearly not a 7). Saying Pedroia should be the MVP because his team is in a race is essentially saying that the king is more valuable because you have two other kings in your hand (Ellsbury and Gonzalez). The argument essentially becomes, "Pedroia is the MVP because he has other MVP calibre players on his team, and Bautista does not."
Three kings beat one ace, but a king alone is still less valuable than an ace. MVP is an award for one card, not the whole hand.
On a separate note, Larry Doby was revealed as the second of the four new baseball stamps.
ReplyDeletePeople keep referring to pressure and the fact that he doesn't have as much as a playoff team. This is a rediculous notion. Who's to say who feels what pressure in what situation. These are all professionals, they've spent their lives trying to be the best they can possibly be. How is the pressure of flip flopping between a lockup of either the division champs or wild card any different than the pressure of being the main man and clearly single best player on a team of up and coming players that are learning how to play in the majors while still going out and winning games, giving them hope and keeping a team competitive. Half of the team is not the same as it was 4 months ago, but he's the one amazingly stable element, think of the added pressure of being one of the few constants while everything else changes. Pressure is pressure, everyone feels it, you do, I sure do. Not all pressure is born equally but the reaction to it is the same, go out and perform to the best of your ability. Bautista's ability is beyond anyone else's in EITHER league right now.
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ReplyDeleteJoe, I wouldn't lump in leadership with RBI and wins. There are things that we simply cannot measure, but which have value, like leadership. At least in theory, a great leader could result in better performances from his teammates, clearly increasing his value.
ReplyDeleteBy contrast, wins and RBI are just poor measures of on-field production. We have better ways of measuring production and should use those.
Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Things we can't measure but which may have value are not the same thing as things we can measure but which just aren't valuable.
Boy, there is some long-winded grumpiness here. Has anyone noticed that Joe didn't actually mention WAR?
ReplyDeleteJoe does mention WAR in his post, in connection with Eckersley.
ReplyDeleteAs Joe points out, WAR puts Eck way, way down the ranks in productivity in the 1992 AL. However, if instead of WAR you use another sabermetric measure of productivity, Win Probability Added (WPA), Eck comes out (according to fangraphs) third in the AL in '92, behind only Frank Thomas and Rickey Henderson.
WPA measures the degree to which a player's performance in each game enhanced or degraded his team's probability of winning the game, taking into account the actual game situation (score, inning, outs, men on base) at the time the player is asked to perform. Arguably WPA gives late-inning relief pitchers a fair way to be evaluated, in terms of production, in comparison to other players. That's because WPA objectively adjusts for the fact that late-ining relievers are performing in situations in which, although they are participating in fewer plate appearances per season, the plate appearances in which they are participating are more important from a game-leverage point of view. WPA suggests you can be sabermetrically sophisticated and still believe that a vote for Eckersley as a top tier choice for MVP in 1992 was defensible. (Note that unlike WAR, WPA does not take into account the contribution, positive or negative, of everyday players in the field).
Stables:
ReplyDeleteThat's a pretty good argument, but:
Imagine $5 in the pocket of a poor man and in the pocket of a rich man. To the poor man, the $5 may be much more important relative to his wealth, and it may feel much more important, but it's not actually any more valuable. It's still $5.
Joe:
ReplyDeleteI think it is a little unfair to lump Rollie Fingers and (especially) Willie Hernandez in with the one inning closers of the 90s. Hernandez pitched in 80 games and threw 140 innings in 1984. He wasn't a closer, but a relief ace, and those guys were a lot more valuable than today's closers.
Which, to give the voters credit, may be reflected in the declining totals for relief pitchers in MVP voting.
Chris- you're absolutely right. There's no way that Jake Scott, Harvey Martin, Richard Dent, Larry Brown, Chuck Howley, Ray Lewis, Randy White, or Dexter Jackson would ever have been considered for the Super Bowl MVP award, because they were defensive players.
ReplyDeleteIn re Bill James and the difference between an ace and a 7, I would comment that I play bridge. Aces will always be valuable in whatever hand one is dealt, because they are immediate 1st round controls in the suit, meaning that 94% of the time an ace is played, it will always take the trick, as in the game of spades. However, the value of a 7 is different because it is not a 1st round control usually in the way that an ace is. It nonetheless has value because there will be times where the number of cards in a suit one has is as important or even more so than having a court card in a suit. And in these cases, it won't necessarily mean that the rank of the card is important, but if someone has a bunch of cards in that suit, and that suit ends up as trumps for the hand, then having 6 cards topped by the 10 makes it often a lot harder for the opponents to play that hand.
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