Monday, August 1, 2011

The New Code of Baseball

OK, so here's the deal: I get why pitchers sometimes throw at hitters. I'm not saying I approve of it or agree with it or even like it … but I get it. Baseball, despite its relatively peaceful rhythms, comes from a violent past. There are scores to settle, messages to send, players to intimidate. Throughout the game's history, there has been an understanding that pitchers can and will make specific points to their opponents by throwing inside.

Don't get too comfortable.

The inside of the plate belongs to me.

Don't hit my teammate with a pitch.

Don't show us up.

We're here to take you guys out.

And so on. The pitchers do not actually have to HIT the batter to send these messages, by the way. Quite often, they don't. Bob Gibson did not hit that many batters in his career -- he never even once led the league in hit-by-pitch, and over a career Jamie Moyer and Aaron Sele among dozens hit more batters than Gibby. But Gibson knocked down enough batters to push him to the top of any list of most intimidating pitchers. As Billy Williams once said: "He left you leaning a little bit away.*"



*Roger Kahn in the incomparable "Boys of Summer" tells the story of a particularly dangerous pitch. The Dodgers were playing the Giants, and that rivalry famous for its intensity, and at one point the Giants threw at Brooklyn's Joe Black, this after making numerous racial taunts. The next inning … well, I cannot top Kahn's description of the pitch Joe Black threw:

"The object, supposedly, is to frighten, not to maim. Against a journeyman white outfielder named George Washington Wilson, from Cherryville, North Carolina, Black drew the perfect line. Wilson, who batted left-handed, dug in his spikes, cocked his bat, and Black powered a fastball at the body, shoulder high. Wilson ducked, in absolute if understandable panic, pulling his head down with such force that his baseball cap came off. The pitch sailed through the narrow daylight, no more than a foot, between the cap and the cranium of George Washington Wilson. He got up quickly, utterly ashen, and popped up the next pitch, with a quarter swing. The Dodgers won, 10 to 2. The pennant was sure."

So, anyway, I get why pitchers throw at hitters. I think I often understand the unwritten rules of the game -- or anyway, I thought I did. But Sunday's game between the Tigers and Angels offered a moment that I have to admit entirely baffled me. There seems to have been a shift in baseball's code that happened when I wasn't watching. And a lot of other people seemed to get the memo, even if I did not.

OK, so best I understand it, here's what happened: Sunday, we had one of those awesome pitching matchups between Detroit's Justin Verlander and the Angels' Jered Weaver. I would say they are two of the three best pitchers in the league at the moment -- with CC Sabathia in the mix -- and they are pitching at a ludicrously high level at the moment. Weaver, as the announcers pointed out several times, had won eight straight decisions. His previous 12 starts, he was 8-0 with a 1.28 ERA and the league had hit .197 with two home runs in those 91 innings pitched. Absurd.

Verlander, in some ways, was even better. Since May 7 -- that was the day he threw his second career no-hitter -- the league had hit .176 against him and his strikeouts-to-walks was 127-to-19. Absurd. Sick. The guy was a no-hitter waiting to happen on any given day. And this looked like one of those days.

The performances lived up to the expectation. Verlander threw 7 2/3 no-hit innings and he threw some ridiculous pitches, absurd pitches, 101 mph fastballs, shell game sliders, The Matrix change-ups. Ridiculous. And Weaver, with his hard slider, his own bullet-defying change-up and his sheer intensity was almost as good. Almost. In the bottom of the third, in a scoreless game, Weaver started off Magglio Ordonez with a hanging slider, and even though Ordonez at age 37 is pretty much spent as a hitter, well, muscle memory kicked in. He crushed the ball over the left-field wall.

That's where the trouble began. Ordonez did walk slowly out of the box and watch the ball go over the fence … Ordonez has always seemed a classy player and so my own sense is that he was just watching the see if the ball went fair or foul. Weaver, in the heat of the moment, was not quite so forgiving in his assessment. He clearly thought Ordonez was trying to show him up. And he was also probably pretty ticked off that he threw a hanging slider. All of it led him to shout some rather course words at Ordonez, this in full view of the Tigers bench and the Tigers crowd and so on. OK. Put that in the memory bank.

Now, as they used to say on the old Notre Dame highlights show, we move to later action. It's the bottom of the seventh. Verlander has now thrown seven no-hit innings. The score is 2-0 Detroit. Weaver pitches to Carlos Guillen, who has been a fine player in his career but who has only played in 163 games the last three seasons combined -- this was only his 14th game of the year. Guillen turned on a 3-2 fastball … a big home run for many reasons.

And Guillen watches it go. And he watches. He takes a step. He then takes another step. He turns his head ever so slightly and looks at Weaver, then holds out his right arm and drops the bat dramatically. He fully turns to look at Weaver and hops. I haven't seen anyone try so hard to steal a scene since the last Mel Brooks movie I saw. If he could have, Guillen would tried to steal Weaver's girl, scratched Weaver's car, stolen Weaver's lunch and if he had access to a metal folding chair he probably would have tried to hit Weaver with it. It was as bush league as anything I can remember for a long time.

Or anyway, that's what I thought about it. And that's what I mean by the changing code. Because I was soon told by the good people of Twitter that Guillen's little act was not, in fact, bush league at all. No! Apparently, Guillen was "standing up for a teammate." I got this line over and over again from Tigers fans (and perhaps some neutral fans as well). This whole deal -- watching the ball, dropping the bat, staring at the pitcher -- was in some way supposed to be a punishment for Weaver yelling at Ordonez earlier in the game. Guillen was actually doing the RIGHT THING by acting like a jerk.

I couldn't believe my Twitter. Is this really where baseball has gone? Really? Retaliation by posing? But again and again, this was what people said. And then, when the game ended, GUILLEN actually said the same thing: "Somebody put down my teammate," he told Michael Rosenberg of the Detroit Free Press. "We're a team," he told MLB.com.

Well, I have to say: This was a new one on me. Showboating as revenge. Grandstanding to send a message. Taunting for the good of the team. People, at least some people, not only didn't BLAME Guillen, they praised him. Good for him. He backed up a teammate. He sent a message.

I didn't get it. I still don't get it. What message? Wasn't the HOME RUN the message? How does taunting the pitcher after hitting it send any message at all? A fastball into the side of the ribs, OK, I get the point. That hurts. But have we really reached a point in America where teams retaliate by sticking their thumbs in their ears, waving their fingers around and shouting "Nanny nanny boo boo?"

There was something else about Guillen's amateur hour act and the people who wanted to explain it away that bugged me … they said he was doing it to stand up for a teammate. Fine. But by doing it he had to KNOW that the next batter was going to get plunked. I mean there was never even a second of doubt that Weaver was going to throw at Alex Avila. The umpire knew it, which is why he walked out to warn Weaver and then warned both benches. The fans knew it. The announcers knew it. Everyone knew it. He was absolutely going to throw at Avila. How about what Guillen did for THAT teammate?

Weaver did throw a high fastball somewhere near Avila's head, which is an absolute no-no and he was rightfully tossed from the game and rightfully castigated by people. And I don't want in even the slightest way downplay that. But I have to say this -- and Tigers announcer Rod Allen said it at the time: I don't think Weaver had any intention of hitting Avila. The pitch had a clear purpose, but it was well over Avila's head (I don't think it would have hit Avila even if he had stood frozen like a statue), and Avila did not have go to the ground or anything like that. He bent down and the ball was probably three feet over his head. I'm not excusing it -- you can't throw the ball anywhere near anyone's head. And if your aim is even slightly off, you can kill somebody throwing a pitch up there. No excuse. Ever. But Weaver did not hit Avila and did not come especially close to hitting Avila and I honestly don't think he WANTED to hit Avila.

There are obviously no good guys in any of this … and it's a shame that it happened while Verlander was pitching a no-hitter. It seems to me that if Guillen wanted to be a good teammate, he would have hit the home run -- the sort of thing that used to send its own message -- and then run around the bases, and given his pitcher the best opportunity for a little history. But a lot of people disagree and think Guillen was doing something almost noble by showing up Jered Weaver. Hey, maybe they're right. Maybe that's what the unspoken rules say now. That's the great thing about baseball. You always learn something new.



56 comments:

  1. Great post and you're completely right about Guillen. It was an embarrassing display and there was no place for it. Weaver should have buried the next pitch in Avila's back and walked off.

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  2. I'm actually more perplexed by the complaints about bunting in a no-hitter situation. As far as I know, in sports you're supposed to make things as hard as possible for the rival team, rather than helping them out.

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  3. But why must Avila suffer in any scenario? If throwing is mandated, sail it over Guillen.

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  4. bobvlegas mentions what I was going to: This post is a perfect example of whatever figure of speech it is that brings attention to something by not mentioning that thing. The only unwritten rule of baseball that actually affected both the game and the no hitter was the attempted bunt hit. I am not an AL gal but did anybody get whizzed or plunked after that? I did not hear so. Yet Verlander, I think, called the bunt attempt "bush." I don't have a fully-formed opinion: I think a three run lead with two innings to go means you want base runners by any means possible. If Aybar had bunted on the short end of an eight run lead, other story.

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  5. Nope, Joe, you had it right in the first place. This was just a case of Guillen being a d*ck and the Tigers and their fans backing him up because he's THEIR d*ck. Bush league all the way. The whining from Tigers is getting out of control and I can only assume it's Leyland who's responsible.

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  6. I agree with this post 100%, though at least throw it at his ribs or something. Never the head. Guillen's play was completely classless. Carlos Carrasco made a very similar play a few games ago against the Royals, though I don't believe there was any showboating. Melky Cabrera just hit a grand slam, and Carrasco threw one right at Billy Butler's head. He was just hit with a 6 day suspension, which I feel is very weak, seeing as he was messing with the man's career and life. Weaver and Guillen should both be penalized for their actions.

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  7. I'm a Tigers fan, and if it were any other player on any other team, I'd be really pissed if they did with Carlos did.

    But, because it's Carlos Guillen, I thought it was pretty awesome. And it worked, you know, Weaver got pissed and ejected. They got in his head big time.

    Not only that, but his performance was particularly stylish. It was like, I'm gonna eat your children Jeff Weaver. I'm gonna eat your little babies. And you're just gonna take it.

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  8. Verlander said the bunt was bush. Leyland said it was a great baseball play. Joe took a pass. My sportswriters code tells me that's bush.

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  9. Yeah, lots and lots of jerks involved here. And while I agree that Guillen's move was clearly classless and uncalled for, there is some merit in noting that Weaver really was the initial prick in this scenario when he jawed at Ordonez. This isn't exactly the first time Weaver has been known as the a-hole, either, something that appears to run in the family given his brother's infamous run-in with Mike Sweeney a few years back.

    And I agree with the others about Aybar's bunt. Perfectly legit in that situation, something even Jim Leyland said he had no problem with.

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  10. I'm a Tiger fan and I thought

    1. Guillen was being a jackass
    2. The bunt was perfectly acceptable. Getting a no-hitter should be difficult. The other team doesn't have to lie down for you.
    3. Weaver was being a baby.

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  11. Guillen should have put down his head and simply run the bases. But Weaver caused the problem by earlier acting like he did from Ordonez's innocent actions. Guillen was classless and Weaver was classless in a classic, "he started it" sort of way.

    In essence, I agree with your take on things.

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  12. Why does baseball have zero tolerance for any of these "bush league" activities when so many other sports do?

    What I mean is: in football, if you stop the runner after a 2 yard gain, get up and pound your chest while getting off the running back, it's fine. If you catch a 5 yard slant on 3rd and 4 and make the symbol for first down the cornerback's face, it's fine. In basketball, if you throw down a big dunk on someone, everyone goes crazy and players showboat down the court, and it's fine.

    In baseball, someone hits a big home run and only jogs around the bases, and the next guy gets a 90+mph fastball around the head. Weaver walked off the field looking as if Guillen had smacked his mother or something, when in reality Weaver just threw a 3-2 meatball that rightfully went out of the park. In any other sport, Guillen's celebration would have been almost understated, given what he did and the situation.

    Anyone have any thoughts on the reasons for this?

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  13. Tiger fan also. I agree with Greg on all three points.

    And Whitaker and Trammell should be in the Hall of Fame.

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  14. Evan Lobell: The reason for this is that baseball is a game with class, and dignity, and a long history. If we wanted to watch three hours of commercials (and 20 minutes of "action" consisting mostly of senseless violence and bombast) we'd watch the NFL.

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  15. anyone else think the Weaver family may just be jerks? I mean, Mike Sweeney was goaded into a fight against elder brother Jeff. Jered, though surferish and relaxed in comparison, is still related to the guy that got MIKE SWEENEY to fight. Weaver is in the wrong for throwing at someone's head, and you shouldn't bunt to break up no-hitters. Those are both roundly accepted rules. The posing thing? Eh, that's gotten out of hand on its own and has evolved to being mostly accepted (see Ortiz, David), though the "doing it to stand up for my teammate" bit is new to me as well.

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  16. Amen, Joe.
    Dark Side of the Mood

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  17. Wow, we're on the bunt now? Guess what? The Angels were trying to win and Aybar reached 2nd on the play. He scored and helped them create some noise off a pitcher who was flat-out dominant.

    As for Weaver, his tossing above the head was a mistake, but honestly, a pitch at Avila's back is probably as close to his head as the one that sailed over it...Guillen pulled a ridiculous act. He's a veteran facing an All-Star pitcher...there needed to be far more respect shown. Had he not grandstanded, Weaver probably would have owned up to calling out Ordonez, who I do think was just checking to see if the ball was foul. Weaver didn't behave like a real pro, but the majority of the blame goes to Guillen in this one

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  18. 1. No issue with Oronez. Even is he was "watching." Its been a while.
    2. Weaver was pissed he hung a pitch, yep. Not acceptable, but understandable.
    3. Guillen's taunt was bush. Period.
    4. Can't throw at the head. Period.
    5. The bunt was fine, but barely. Three run game, go ahead. Four might be pushing it.
    6. Evan: That's what makes baseball baseball. I agree that the antics displayed are common in football and hoops. In baseball, it means you are classless and without tact. Keep to your gridiron and cage, we'll stick to the thinking gentleman's game.

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  19. i think people are looking at guillen "defending" his teammate the wrong way. his exaggerated home run celebration, to me, looked like he was saying "THIS IS SHOWBOATING. THIS IS WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE." i have no problem with it in this sense. he was defending his teammates actions, and his honor, as much as defending the script D on his jersey. you said it yourself joe, Ordonez is typically known as a class act, and for Weaver, a young player, to assume otherwise is just classless.

    If you dont want the other team to celebrate, then stop them. shut up, put your head down, execute the pitch, and get the out. to me its in the same category as NFL players/coaches who complain about the score being run up. you are grown men, do something about it. dont act like a teenage girl throwing a tantrum because you hung a few pitches. theres a fine line between competitiveness and being a jerk. a lot of the greats (jordan, brady, ovechkin) walk this line. but when brady throws a pick, he doesnt tell aaron hernandez to go take the safety out from behind. he doesnt get into catfights with players of a lower caliber than himself. he mans up and leads the next drive right at your throat. (think the steelers secondary player who ran his mouth in the playoffs a few years back)

    sorry, i got off topic. anyway, i dont blame guillen or ordonez for their actions, i blame weaver for his tantrum earlier in the game which allowed all the later events to occur.

    the bunt was a non-event to me, while i personally dont think it was cool and kosher, i have no problem with people who see it the other way.

    and if you ask Avila, im sure he will tell you that if facing a few pitches inside is the price of the team getting the message across, he will stand in there ten times out of ten. thats what being a teammate in the sport is all about. the minute you dont do that, you dont stand a chance in the locker room.

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  20. I suppose it's far too much to expect all baseball players to react to perceived slights in a Christian, turn-the-other-cheek way.

    But if they can't manage that, could they at least move up to the "eye for an eye" level...you know, like people started doing about 5000 years ago? So Guillen would act exactly like Ordonez, no more, no less. And then that's the end of the matter. Is even that too much to ask?

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  21. I'm an NL fan, so I don't have any emotional investment in either team. I agree with the general notion that Guillen responded to Weaver's childishness with more of the same.

    But I think it's a faulty argument to suggest that the home run was payback. How? The home run is what any player would want in any trip to the plate in any situation. It is the game itself. Can you really 'send a message,' if that's what Guillen was trying to do, about extracurricular activity (Weaver's barking) by just playing the game? That doesn't quite line up for me.

    A pitcher's resource in these situations is to throw a ball at a batter (what Weaver probably would have done if he'd been barked at, and not the other way around). Sometimes pitchers do this simply because players have the audacity to hit them well. (The nerve!) Throwing at batters is part of the game, but it's also somewhat beyond the game. So what options does a batter have to retaliate against a pitcher in a "beyond the game" fashion? I think it's to show them up at Guillen did.

    Again, I think the antics on both sides were childish and the game would be better without them. But if Weaver barks, it seems the Tigers should be able to 'bark' back, which is exactly what that stare-down was. (And, yes, Weaver could and did throw at the next guy. But you don't think Guillen is going to have his tower buzzed next time? He's taking responsibility for himself in at least that respect.) I won't go so far as to praise Guillen; I don't think he's a hero here. But I do think he fought fire with fire.

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  22. I agree with Cliff's take on Guillen's actions. Like "Hey, Jered Weaver, if you wanna be a crybaby I'll give you something to cry about."

    Joe, hitting a home run does not send a message. You can't plan to hit a home run.

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  23. I agree with you Joe, Guillen was flat out Bush! That was one of the most pathetic things I have seen on a baseball field in a long time. To me that's the furthest thing from being a teammate. He put himself out front and center and said look at ME for what I did.

    I wonder if the bunt attempt was in some way retaliation.

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  24. I also agree with Cliff above. Some hitters pose after a home run because they are celebrating their great skill. But Guillen was clearly posing to rile up Weaver. I guess this was in retaliation for the Ordonez thing.

    The thing is, Guillen's taunt worked. Weaver blew his top and he was out of the game one pitch later. Note to AL teams, start taunting Weaver and maybe he'll implode.

    As for the bunt, Mike Scioscia seems like the kind of manager who respects the unwritten rules of the game, as well as the old school style of play. I'm not positive about this, but it seems that way. Thus, it seemed to me like the bunt was a retaliation for Guillen's nonsense. "If you want to be bush league, we can be bush league too."

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  25. A larger issue, which I haven't seen pointed out, is that after Guillen showboated out of the box (and I really like a comment I saw on a Tigers blog that said basically, "You think Maggs was showing you up? HERE's how you show up a pitcher"), the home plate umpire went out to talk to JW the Younger, had a little conversation, and then immediately warned both benches before he EVEN LEFT the mound.

    And then Weaver threw the purpose pitch anyway.

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  26. @Edward, I think Joe did point that out. It's just a couple lines in the piece; easily overlooked.

    @Cliff, you may be right about Guillen in effect saying, 'You want showboating? *I'll* give you some showboating." However, he also had to know that doing so would likely result in Avila getting drilled.

    As an aside, what if Weaver had put a 95-mph pitch on Avila's tuchus? Leave a deep bruise, and hurt, but extremely unlikely to cause injury. One on the middle of the back could conceivably chip a bone or something, and if it sails on you it could get close to his head. But a fastball at his fleshy parts? That could send a message. Someone help me out--why wouldn't Weaver send one that way?

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  27. I don't have much to add here, just found it ironic that a guy wearing a Red Sox hat (commenter 8/1 5:54) is calling other people a-holes and pricks.

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  28. a recent development in the baseball code seems to be that once you break one of the unwritten rules, there are no more rules.

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  29. I think had JW the Younger hammered Aliva in the ribs, everyone would have walked away, more or less. JW still would have been tossed, of course; he was going to get tossed if any pitch had been on the inner half of the plate, much less in the batter's box. But sticking Avila in the ribs - everyone would have nodded and that would have been that. It's the headhunting that people are understandably annoyed about.

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  30. weaver is just a poor sport. he was getting out-dueled and hes gotten used to being the bigger fish in the pond. i guarantee if the angels are winning 5-1 after that first home run none of this ever happens. when magglio went yard on him, he knew the way verlander was dealing (filthy from the get-go) that the game was probably over.

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  31. Joe, wasn't the game in Detroit? Box scores indicate so. That affects the timing of things.

    Weaver had thrown something like 119 pitches and was coming out of the game soon anyways. That meant Weaver would have no shot at Guillen again this game. In fact, Weaver was being a GOOD team mate. If he didn't retaliate, some reliever would have had to, gotten tossed (you think a Mike Scioscia team isn't hard-nosed?), forcing another reliever. Thus, Weaver's actions spared the bullpen, supported the team, and did NOT hit Avila (which might have caused a suspension). If this were the 5th inning, Weaver would have waited until Guillen's next at bat, and would have hit him for sure, probably in the side. If the ump REALLY wanted to control the game, eject the showboater Guillen. In a 3-0 game with Verlander having allowed zero hits through 7 innings, the game impact would be minimal.

    I didn't see Ordonez's actions so cannot comment on them or Weaver's response. But given that prelude, especially in a potential game for the ages (Verlander having completed 7 no hit innings) Guillen's inflammatory actions were totally bush, not standing up for a team mate. He forced the inning to last longer with his pause and then following Weaver's ejection, affecting Verlander's rhythm, letting Verlander's arm get a little cooler before going back to the mound. Those are not the proper actions of a good team mate.

    Weaver is not a man with poor control of his fast ball. Avila oversold the head location; it was high, but it was very high, and not all that far inside. I cannot blame Avila; if he just stood there, the next pitch would have been closer, and might have hit him.

    Do you think Aybar would bunt if Guillen had not started the truly bush league behavior? Aybar does bunt a lot for base hits, but out of respect for Verlander I think he might have swung away if not for Guillen. So there was the payback. However, it led to two runs (on one hit) which the Angels certainly needed.

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  32. Ordonez hit his HR down the LF line and stayed in the box to watch it. He said in postgame comments that he wanted to make sure it was fair. Meanwhile, also according to postgame comments, JW started screaming at Ordonez to run the bases, and jawed again at Ordonez during his next at-bat.

    The Tigers did not react favorably to that.

    Also, something Joe didn't mention is that after the top of the 8th was over, Verlander was in the dugout, yelled at Aybar to get his attention, and then pointed at his own back -- the message being that Aybar will get his own welt at some point in the future. That was a comment not only at the bunt, but also at a forearm mini-shove that Aybar gave Verlander at the end of the rundown at home plate in the top of the inning as the Tigers botched that and allowed Verlander and Aybar to get up close and personal.

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  33. Couldn't agree more Joe. Though Weaver's headhunting was a low rent move, it was several feet high when it came in and wasn't that far inside. As far as headhunting pitches go over the years, it was still pretty tame.

    It is funny how Detroit fans are trying to justify the actions of Guillen... might have been one of the most disgusting displays of showboating I've ever seen in baseball, and it was particularly cowardly knowing that the retaliation for it would be seen by Avila, not by Guillen himself.

    If Verlander supposedly told Erick Aybar he was going to hit him the next time the teams meet, does that mean he should receive a 6 game suspension as well when he does?

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  34. What isn't mentioned here is that not only was Weaver jawing at Magglio after he hit the homerun, he was jawing at Miguel, and half the other tigers until Maggs came up again and flew out, at which point he started talking crap to Maggs AGAIN.

    Cliff is 100% accurate. Guillen hit his homerun and wanted to make sure that Weaver really knew what showboating was, that way Weaver could keep his trap shut when people were watching to make sure a homerun down the foul line was fair or not.

    That doesn't excuse what Guillen did, it was showboating and I am sure that every Tiger knew what was coming and they were all fine with it (even Avila). Of course, they were probably expecting one in the ribs or back or even behind the runner, not at the head. That is the biggest problem Tiger fans have with this. Not that he threw at Avila (who because he is a all star someone on here seems to think he should get more respect, or is that only for Angel's all stars?... Matter of fact Guillen and Maggs are both former all stars so where is their deserved respect?) but that he threw at his head.

    I could care less about the bunt honestly, it didn't break up the no hitter, and it was still a close enough game where you just need to try and get something going.

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  35. Great game to watch. Interesting comments on here.

    Here's my take:

    Ordonez was fine. I am not sure if he watched any more so than most ball players when they homer(with the exception of Scott Rolen who always sprints)

    Guillen was way out of line, but I can understand those who defend him in a way also.

    Weaver throwing at Avila made no sense to me. I agree that most likely this would have been Weaver's last inning anyway, so I am fine with the timing, but why not bury one in the ribs? As mentioned, although head hunting is totally wrong, anyone who saw the pitch knows it was not really that close. Trust me, if Weaver wanted to hit Avila in the head he would have. I am just not sure what message was sent. "Don't show me up or I will throw a ball a foot over you"? I would drill him.

    We will see if this carries over. These teams are done for the year unless in the post season so we will see next year if this is forgotten.

    Last thing: The bunt was fine. I actually have no problem with someone bunting for a hit if it was 45-0 and a no hitter. As the guys on PTI said "what, are you supposed to accomadate a no hitter"?

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  36. for the record, i want to make it clear that i am an NL fan.(reds)

    i dont understand the argument that weaver was being a good teammate and guillen was being a bad one?

    if weaver had been a good teammate, he would have kept his mouth shut. he started this feud when he wouldnt shut up about the magglio home run even as the rest of the line-up stepped to the plate. if sometime next may justin verlander buries a 101MPH fastball in aybars back, sportscenter will do a timeline of all the events leading up to it, and you know what will be the origin point? some hot shot pitcher upset he couldnt sneak a hanging slider past a world-class hitter. he knew what he was getting himself into. in a way its sad because he wasnt such a jerk a few years ago. if i remember, he was never one to argue calls, he put his head down and pitched. i dont know what kind of rights or privileges he thinks his current status as top dog gets him, but its negated when the three other players involved in the series of events are all also all stars.

    and like i said earlier, im sure Avila was more than willing to stand in there knowing what was coming. a man has to do what a man has to do.

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  37. some of you may remember the reds-cardinals brawl from last year. During the fight, Chris Carpenter had some harsh words for Dusty Baker (some Reds players have suggested they were racial slurs, but i digress on that bit of hearsay) and upon hearing this, Scott Rolen (far and away one of the classiest players i have ever seen) came over and took a few swings at a man who he considered his FRIEND. all in the name of defending a teammate(or manager) and the jersey which he wears. its all part of the game.

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  38. I never threw at anyone in retaliation for a home run, but I never had anyone take the showboating quite so far as Guillen either. He was calling him out and it was probably his last inning anyway.

    I think he threw over Avila's head on purpose, I don't think he was headhunting. He wanted everyone to know what he was doing, but did not want to actually hit Avila. You still don't want to throw that high. A slight mistake could mean a major injury. I always used to aim for the ass. If it goes too high, it's the ribs. If it goes too low he has to skip out of the way. Too far left is behind the back-message sent. Too far right, he backs away. On target, he takes a ball in the ass.

    The bunt may have been retaliation, but I still expect Verlander to pay Aybar back next year, of perhaps the playoffs if both teams make it. You don't bunt to break up a no hitter. You are not giving in by not bunting, you are trying to get a clean hit, to not end it cheaply.

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  39. Lost in all of this is that Verlander still should have gotten out of the 8th with the no-hitter.

    Consider:
    a. Aybar leads off and drops a hard bunt off a high fastball basically right back at Verlander, who rushes the throw and Aybar gets to second on the error.

    b. Verlander gets Trumbo to ground to first, Aybar advances to third. One out.

    c. Bourjos grounds to third. At this point, I believe Don Kelly is playing third. He has a choice - throw to first for the out, or go home to cut down the runner and keep the shutout intact. He throws home in plenty of time to get Aybar. However, Aybar stops and gets in a rundown, which the Tigers mess up, Verlander drops the throw and Aybar scores (and throws the forearm to Verlander on his way by). Bourjos goes to second.

    Still one out (and two outs given up by the Tigers defense).

    d. Kendrick strikes out. Two out.

    At this point, Verlander should be sitting on the bench with his no-hitter intact.

    e. Izturis hits a clean single to left, breaking up the no-hitter. Btw, Bourjos scores and the Tigers lead 3-2 with two unearned runs given up by Verlander in the inning.

    f. Hunter strikes out. Three out.

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  40. What's funny about Aybar's bunt was that some people, including Mike Scioscia, think it should have been ruled a hit.
    I looked at the replay, and it looks to me like Aybar would have been out by at least a step. But can you imagine if another 1st base umpire ended a Tiger no-hitter on a close call at 1st base?

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  41. I'm a total Angel fan- I got no problem with Ordonez standing and waiting for fair or foul. Weaver was out of line for being cranky about that. Guillen was asking for trouble. I'm not real proud of Weav today, but Guillen was an ass, pure and simple.

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  42. It stuns me just how many people excuse the behavior of Guillen and/or Weaver on the basis of "that's baseball!" Are we all still operating on the same emotional level as kids in high-school? Someone gets to treat another human being like crap because we're all just too stupid (or, I anxiously await this claim, "manly") to expect anything better? Lord.

    Although Weaver will probably be the only one suspended, it sounds like both of them need to take a few classes in acting like a freaking grownup.

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  43. "All of it led him to shout some rather course words at Ordonez..."

    Curse? Coarse?

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  44. I suspect that if you, like me, never had a chance of hitting a dinger, but could bunt for hits, you, like me, would be fine with Aybar's bunt.
    Heck, 3 nothing, ANY baserunner matters. Even 4 nothing, a bunt is ok.
    Five? probably not.
    thanks Joe - nice post

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  45. Someone needs to explain to me why professional athletes are allowed to act like such babies, why it's actually EXPECTED that they do. Okay, maybe Guillen made a classless move. IMHO, it was an understandable one...it's not easy to hit a home run against (arguably) the best pitcher in the league in a close game when you're well past your prime and you've played barely more than a dozen games in the season. Guillen was fired up. His move may not have been gentlemanly, but it was UNDERSTANDABLE, no?

    Weaver proceeded to hurl a rock at 100 MPH at SOMEONE ELSE'S head.

    To...uh...take revenge on Guillen? By nearly killing someone else?

    Unreal. If you did that in the Little League my uncle coaches, you'd get kicked off the team. But in major league baseball, that's the "code"...it's expected. Someone PLEASE explain this to me.

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  46. Guillen knew his move would push Weaver over the top. We all knew it as did Avila. He dodges the ball, Weaver is thrown out. Seems to me Guillen got the best of him and one of the top three pitchers in the league was no longer in the game. I hate hearing people whine about sportsmanship, or if someone acted classless. Waa, emotions are part of the game too and it adds to good rivalries. How many people are going to be going crazy the next time Weaver pitches against the Tigers?

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  47. Underminer- I was a singles and doubles hitter, a good bunter and a guy who could also turn a gapper into a triple. I had Chris Getz like power. I hit 3 over the wall home runs in 14 years. The bunt was still bush. Down 3-0, you are going to need a couple of clean hits to have any hope of tying the game, so a leadoff bunt is blatantly an attempt to cheaply end the no-hitter.

    If I were Verlander, Aybar would be on my list.

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  48. @Mark Daniel - While that is an amusing comment, umpires don't rule on errors. There is an official in the press box that determine how hits and errors are scored.

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  49. You missed a fair amount, Joe.

    I watched the whole game, and Weaver was jawing at Ordonez not just for that at bat, but also when Ordonez hit a fly out, and jawing at Cabrera over a infield out, basically every time a Tiger was up to bat, Weaver was yelling at them to run the bases and complaining about their playing before Guillen went out there and showed Weaver what a taunt really looks like. Weaver ran his mouth even before Guillen dissed him, and it's Halos fans griping because their ace got canned for showing his ass. If you saw the whole game, it was apparent that Weaver was just spoiling for a fight the entire night, and Guillen's showboating made more sense in context.

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  50. Yes.

    Yes Joe..Yes. This is what baseball has come to. If you start your theory of the new code with -- you get why pitchers throw at hitters, then you have -- in fact -- accepted there will be miscreant behavior in a sport of boys played by men.

    Let's say what Carlos did was cheap, the lowest of the lowest.

    How cheap then is Torii Hunter posing for a fly out? Kind of cheap? or is cheap pass- fail... you are Carlos Guillen Cheap, but everything above that is okay.

    Which would mean when big poppi crushes one and waits long enough for room service to send him bacon and eggs.. is that okay then, because that didn't start this year, that has been going on for a while - quite a while. And Joe, let me tell you, it is up to YOU to call the code on that one.

    What about the most egregious: Kirk Gibson. He hits a home run, kind of a big home run in 1984 (post season, there was another moment in '88) Down the first base line he danced, he jumped; rounding first he starts pumping his elbow... he, he.. well let me use a quote to describe it.

    [QUOTE]hops. I haven't seen anyone try so hard to steal a scene since the last Mel Brooks movie I saw. If he could have, ******* would tried to steal Weaver's girl, scratched Weaver's car, stolen Weaver's lunch and if he had access to a metal folding chair he probably would have tried to hit Weaver with it. It was as bush league as anything I can remember for a long time.[/QUOTE]

    well that is how we describe Guillen.

    Joe, nice article, you are right, it has come to this. You and the media should step forward and pump your elbow, because for about 30 years you have been ducking the fastball inside --- hoping the umpire would take care if it.

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  51. Tampa Mike, I know umpires don't make error/hit decisions. I was speculating what might happen IF Verlander's throw was on target. Would the umpire have called Aybar safe if it was a close play, thereby ending another Tiger no-hitter?

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  52. Joe, maybe you haven't been watching baseball the last -- oh I don't know, 25 years or so -- but guys have been posing and styling after home runs for a really long time now. There was this guy named Barry Bonds who used to do this a lot. Right now, the Red Sox have this guy named David Ortiz who does it quite frequently, too.

    Seriously, Carlos Guillen is one of the most low-key guys in all of MLB. He has NEVER done anything like this in his career. Same goes for Magglio Ordonez. For these two guys to get that pissed means Weaver must have said something seriously out of line, IMO. He's a Weaver, so it's not surprising. In a vacuum, yeah, Guillen's antics were "bush league", but in context, Weaver deserved it. Every bit of it.

    And that bunt was totally legit. Nothing wrong with it at all. There's no clock in baseball.

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  53. NL fan, turned on the game when I learned Verlander had the no hitter, though I have a soft spot for Guillen for helping me win my DMB league in 2007. I had no problem with it upon learning that Weaver had yelled at Mags. Mags and Guillen have been teammates forever, I'm sure they're really close friends. When I first saw it I was like, sheesh Carlos really is showboating for some reason. Then I found out the reason and it didn't bother me. Though if I were an Angels fan I'm sure it would've pissed me off

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  54. The thing about the bunt, for me, wasn't whether or not Aybar should have done it. Why not? (And I say that as a lifelong Tiger fan.) The more interesting part about the bunt was how it was fielded. The bunt was not, as described previously, "basically right back to Verlander." Verlander had to run at least halfway to the plate and a bit to his right.

    The throw was awful, but I don't think he had a 25% chance of getting him if he'd fielded it cleanly. I wondered then - and still do - whether he would have gotten the error call on the road. Should have been a hit.

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  55. FWIW, the post game analyst for the Angels was positive that Aybar would have been out had the throw been on target. He was asked twice, and his answer was definitive.

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  56. I'm glad players show some emotion today - too many players when I was growing up in the 1980s seemed like joyless robots on the field. But I couldn't agree more that testosterone-fueled preening is out of control. Victorino starting a brawl last night for getting hit on his ass? Really?

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