Well, this one is more like a challenge … issued by the brilliant Tom Tango.
Tango sent along an email that discusses a fascinating point about analyzing baseball (and perhaps everything), something that has to do with consistency. Maybe the best way to explain it is through Bill James' classic piece on Ken Keltner and the Hall of Fame. You might remember that Bill had received several letters from an advocacy group (a group that included Bud Selig) making an impassioned case for former Indians third baseman Ken Keltner as a Hall of Famer.
A central part of that case was that Keltner:
1. Had a higher lifetime average than Hall of Famer Eddie Mathews.
2. Had more RBIs than Hall of Famer Jackie Robinson.
3. Had more hits than Hall of Famer Ralph Kiner.
If you look now -- with the benefit of years and years of such pleasant-sounding Hall of Fame arguments -- the absurdity smacks you right in the face. Matthews, of course, made it into the Hall of Fame DESPITE his .271 batting average, not because of it. You could argue that low batting average kept him out of the Hall for his first four years of eligibility, a blight on the writers’ Hall of Fame voting records. Robinson was elected DESPITE his mere 734 RBIs (and it's still striking to see that he receives 77.5 percent of the vote). Ralph Kiner made it DESPITE a rather paltry looking 1,451 hits -- and it took him the full 15 years to get elected.
It's clear that Kevin McReynolds should not be in the Hall of Fame because he was better defensively than Hall of Famer Ted Williams or, to take it up another notch, that Rick Rhoden should not be in the Hall of Fame because he was a much better hitter than Sandy Koufax … well, that's basically the argument being made with Keltner.
But the larger point is that nobody in the Keltner group really believes the Keltner Standard should be applied for the Hall of Fame. There are 234 players currently not in the Hall of Fame who meet the Keltner Standard, and 90 percent at least are not even viewed as viable Hall of Fame candidates. They are perfectly fine players, but that's about it. The list includes Willie Montanez (whose lifetime WAR is 0.0). The list includes B.J. Surhoff and Richie Hebner and Wally Joyner and Rico Carty and so on.
But I'm sure the Committee to Elect Ken Keltner would tell you they would not want that standard to be used in other cases. They would tell you that Keltner is different because he was a great defensive player (he was), because he was a hero for the 1948 World Champion Indians (he was) and because he was a fine gentleman who represented the game well (he was and did).
The thing is … a fan of any player can come up with such exceptions if they choose. The point is not the exceptions. The point is that because the Ken Keltner group began with their conclusion -- that Keltner belongs in the Hall of Fame -- the rest was amplifying numbers that backed that argument, conveniently passing on the ones that didn't, playing hide and seek with a fair argument.
And while the Ken Keltner example seems kind of obvious and transparent, Tango believes -- and I agree -- that this is the sort of inconsistent analysis we often get in. I’ll quote him:
“A fan will sometimes want to consider clutch and other times not. He will give bonus points for making the playoffs, but not always, and maybe not to the same degree each year. Maybe he thinks a low BABIP should be rewarded for Verlander, and maybe a high BABIP should be dismissed in some cases.”
I think that’s right. The MVP races are a great example. My editor often gripes about how, when it comes to the MVP races, many people will choose from the enormous menu of options to get to the player they wanted in the first place. If the player of choice plays for a winning team, then that becomes important -- how can you be “valuable” for a losing team? If he doesn’t play for a winning team, however, then the argument becomes that a player should not be penalized for having lousy teammates. If he has a high on-base percentage, then that’s important. But if he doesn’t then perhaps his job is not to get on base but to drive in runs. Leadership is wielded often and usually without anything more concrete than vague stories about helping out a teammate or giving a speech. Same goes for clutch performance and fielding performance (sometimes with numbers, sometimes without). Obviously not EVERYBODY works this sort of conclusion first analysis, but many do … at least to some extent.
So if I’m understanding Tango, he’s not so concerned about the FRAMEWORK people use. It can be WAR, VORP, Win Shares, whatever. But he thinks once you choose that framework you have to be consistent about implementation … no matter the results. That -- and that alone -- tells you the value of the framework. If you believe RBIs trump all for instance, that’s fine, but then you have to live with the fact that in 1957, the year Mickey Mantle won the MVP, five players were better than him because they drove in more runs -- this would include Vic Wertz and Frank Malzone. Pick a framework … any framework you want. But live with the results.
Which leads us to the Tango challenge … and Jack Morris … and Rick Reuschel.
You probably know -- it’s been mentioned here a time or two -- that Baseball Reference’s WAR says Rick Reuschel was a better pitcher than Jack Morris. WAR is not so precise that you can feel supremely confident that a player with a 5.4 WAR season was definitely better than a player with a 5.1 season.
But with Reuschel and Morris, um, it’s not that close.
Career WAR:
Rick Reuschel: 64.6
Jack Morris: 39.3
No, that’s not close. Of course, you might then argue that Morris had better individual seasons than Reuschel. WAR says no soup for you.*
*WAR prefers outdated "Seinfeld" references. WAR is like that.
Best seasons by WAR
1. Reuschel, 1977, 9.2
2. Reuschel, 1985, 6.0
3. Morris, 1979, 5.6
(tie) Reuschel, 1973, 5.6
5. Reuschel, 1979, 5.5
6. Reuschel, 1980, 5.4
7. Reuschel, 1978, 5.2
8. Morris, 1986, 4.8
(tie) Morris, 1987, 4.8
10. Morris, 1986, 4.6
So six of the top seven WAR seasons belong to Reuschel, including the top two.
Of course, not many people outside the statistical world think Reuschel was even close to as good a pitcher as Jack Morris (though it is noted that at this moment, he leads the poll on this blog). In 1997, Reuschel got exactly two Hall of Fame votes. Morris, meanwhile, is on the brink of being elected. People talk about Morris quite a lot; nobody seems to talk about Reuschel (except, perhaps, in reference to Morris). Some of this is fairly easy to explain -- these are those famous “exceptions” that the Ken Keltner crowd used. Morris pitched for winning teams. He was Opening Day starter a lot. He pitched one of the most famous games in baseball history. He had a certain bulldog presence that Reuschel lacked.
But none of these are particularly convincing arguments that Morris WAS better than Reuschel, either at his peak or over a whole career.
So the Tango Challenge -- come up with a framework that shows that Jack Morris was better than Rick Reuschel. On the bright side, you don’t have to defend the framework itself -- that is to say, if you want to say Morris is better because he won more games (254-214) then that can be your framework.
On the downside, however, you would have then concede that every pitcher who won more games than Jack Morris was a better pitcher than him and is more deserving than Morris for the Hall of Fame. This would include Jim Kaat and Tommy John and Jamie Moyer. Maybe you could live with this. However, if you are really going to use career wins as your framework, you would also have to live with Bob Forsch (168) being better than Sandy Koufax (165) and Jerry Reuss (220) being better than Pedro Martinez (219).
You could go with winning percentage -- Morris’ .563 was quite a bit better than Reuschel’s .528. But again, you would be opening the door. Dwight Gooden had a much higher winning percentage than Morris, and so did Bob Welch, David Wells, Dave McNally and Wes Ferrell, who also hit a lot better than Morris.
No, these are obviously flawed methods. OK, how about this? Morris won 20 three times, Reuschel only once. But again, there’s Wes Ferrell with six 20-win seasons. Wilbur Wood, Mike Cuellar, Luis Tiant, Dave McNally, Johnny Sain all won 20 more often than Morris … no, if you’re trying to make Morris’ case you don’t want to measure by 20-win seasons. Strikeouts will lead down the same path.
You could go with Morris’ amazing Game 7 as the critical factor. But then you would have to think hard about Don Larsen as a Hall of Famer, and Jim Lonborg, and Mickey Lolich and Allie Reynolds and so on.
So you look elsewhere. The advanced stats seem to be conspiring. Win Shares? No. Morris had 225 Win Shares; Reuschel had 240. FanGraphs? Definitely not. Reuschel had 73.4 FanGraphs Win Shares, Morris only 56.9. How about Baseball Prospectus’ VORP? It’s close but … no. Reuschel 35.1 WARP (Wins Above Replacement Player) and Morris 33.3.
So now what? That’s your challenge. If you believe Jack Morris was better than Rick Reuschel -- ESPECIALLY if you believe this should not even be a discussion -- then throw out a framework that proves it. And then, let’s test it.
First!!!
ReplyDeleteI assume you mean whoever pitched first should make the hall of fame.
DeleteUnfortunately that does not work as Rick Reuschel pitched before Jack Morris.
Also a lot of poor quality pitchers pitched before Jack Morris so I think this method would lead to a bloated Hall of Fame.
I followed the same reasoning only using ERA+, which seems somewhat more objective, than WAR, which varies from web site to web site. I also note that even though Reuschel appears to be a better fielder (3 GG to none) Morris has a better dWAR (0.4 to 0.2) for their career. The only justification for Morris over Reuschel is perhaps the best pitched game seven of the World Series, in the history of the World Series, and outpitching the other starter by an inning and the other guy might have had the second best pitched game seven in the history of the World Series. Huge game. Best game 7 ever, second best WS game ever behind only Larsen. Adds a lot. Doesn't add enough, to me.
ReplyDeleteOn what grounds is Morris' game 7 the best game 7 ever? The fact that it was televised in prime time in recent memory?
DeleteGuessing he thinks an extra inning complete game shutout (1991) one-run victory trumps a nine inning complete game shutout (1962) victory. :)
DeleteMake that a nine inning complete game shutout one-run victory.
DeleteRun on sentence fail. :)
Top WS Game 7 pitching performances by game score:
Delete88 - Sandy Koufax, 1965
84 - Jack Morris, 1991
83 - Ralph Terry, 1961
80 - Dizzy Dean, 1934
80 - Bob Gibson, 1967
Morris' and Terry's seem the most impressive b/c they were only given 1 run to work with (although Koufax only had 2). The argument for Morris over Terry is that he worked one more inning and struck out 8 to Terry's 4. The argument for Terry is that he was pitching against a more potent offense ('61 Giants 5.3 RPG vs. '91 Braves 4.6 RPG) and he didn't need Lonnie Smith's baserunning gaffe to bail him out.
Sorry - I meant '62 for Ralph Terry
DeleteJoe, I don't seem to be able to comment over at the other site, but in reference to your NL-WAR piece, you fall victim to the "national writer parachuting in to comment on a team he doesn't really follow" problem. In this case, the Phillies. Your basic point about age is, of course, correct. And we really have no idea what will happen next year. Those guys will indeed be yet another year older. But this season? The age of the guys on offense has really not been the problem. It has been the pitching. Full stop. Whether luck or just bad pitching, or some combination, it's been too many runs allowed. Granted, part of this was Roy Halladay hitting the DL for 6 weeks or so, and he is the oldest starting pitcher on the staff. But you don't mention him. Truth is, the offense was holding its own through most of the troubles in June & July, but the pitching had cratered. June is the month that really killed them. Yet they had a collective wRC+ of 102 that month. Not awesome, but not bad. Unfortunately, Halladay was out, Lee & Hamels were giving up ill-timed homers, the younger starters weren't fantastic, and the bullpen, which is almost entirely made up of young arms, was giving up runs by the truckload.
ReplyDeleteThe problem with parachuting in, is you see what you expect to see. The prevailing narrative on the Phillies is that they got old, it was a good run, etc. Well, sure. Maybe. But if you look closer, maybe not.
Speaking of the NL WAR article, Joe has the Pirates with "5" in their division, rather than "3". Force of Habit?
DeletePardon the tech question, but is the SoE content - either just Our Genial Host's, or all of it - available on an RSS feed? My attempts to put the new joint into Google Reader have failed me.
ReplyDeleteI like the idea of a framework, but to a certain point: in my ideal world, the framework would set a certain benchmark that you'd have to hit in order to be eligible for consideration. Then, after that, those 'in the know' could potentially use intangibles to further rank those that qualified. Of course, any self-respecting framework won't include wins or RBIs in the discussion.
ReplyDeleteHi, Joe- I'm not necessarily against this argument:
ReplyDelete"You could go with Morris’ amazing Game 7 as the critical factor. But then you would have to think hard about Don Larsen as a Hall of Famer, and Jim Lonborg, and Mickey Lolich and Allie Reynolds and so on."
It is a Hall of Fame, and these men seized the moment with the hottest spotlight upon them. They gained Fame in a moment, or a couple moments in a series. That counts.
If you want a benchmark, how about this:
Cooperstown is an inspiring place. It is meant to be inspiring. It is meant to be a place where the Love of the Game is passed, one generation to the next.
So if I'm introducing a young person to baseball, when I describe a player on a plaque, I want that youngster to have a WOW! moment.
Jack Morris had a WOW! moment that can amaze a youngster. So did Larsen, Lonborg, Lolich, Allie Reynolds, maybe a few others.
I want one or more of the WOW! moments to click in with the youngster, to bbe something they can take away & pass on to their kids as well.
Maybe the measure should be the WOW!, because the Hall is not for you or me. It's for the Kids. And it's for passing the torch.
Is that fair to Rick R.? Maybe not. But, in case you've not noticed, Life's Not Fair.
Those moments are already in the Hall. The question isn't about that.
DeleteDavid Freese had an incredible wow moment last year. Tied the game on the last strike in the 9th. Won it in the 11th. If I saw his plaque in the Hall, I would love to tell my kids *that* story. So should we let David Freese into the HOF?
DeleteWhat about the Dave Roberts steal heard round the world? Or those Jim Leyritz home runs against Atlanta?
DeleteThose were both major, major "WOW" moments for me.
Another problem with your argument is about the moniker "Hall of Fame". The Hall doesn't reward fame, it confers it. It rewards excellence. Curt Schilling is famous; it doesn't make him a Hall of Famer.
DeletePeople often feel the building is the entire Hall of Fame. The official name is the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum.
DeleteThe Hall of Fame is one room in the museum. Pete Rose is in the museum. But he isn't in the Hall of Fame. When bats, balls, bases, etc. get sent to the HoF, they are actually going to the museum. So, David Freese and Dave Roberts are definitely there for their moments. They are worthy. But they don't have a plaque in the Hall.
How about this: Number of All-Star game appearances + Number of top 5 Cy Young award finishes + Number of 20 win seasons. Morris has 13, Reuschel has 6.
ReplyDeleteLooking at the other pitchers mentioned in the post as comparisons: Kaat (7), Cuellar (9), Moyer (5) Tommy John (10), Gooden (10), Welch (4), David Wells (6), McNally (10), Wes Ferrell (8), Allie Reynolds (6), Wilbur Wood (10), Luis Tiant (9), Sain (7), Don Larsen (0!!!), Lolich (7), Lonborg (2), Bob Forsch (1), Jerry Reuss (3).
By this metric, Morris outclasses all of them. Incidentally, Koufax (13) and Pedro Martinez (17) were alluded to in this post as being worth of the HOF, and both of them are equal or better than Morris. So far, this metric looks to be consistent. (Although old timers are hurt by the fact that there was no Cy Young Award before 1956, and only one award winner for both leagues from 1956-66)
By the way, I really don't believe that Morris should be in the HOF. But before Sabermetrics became so popular, 20 win seasons, top 5 Cy Young placement, and All Star game appearances were all considered benchmarks of high achievement. And certainly among many HOF voters, all three are held in the same esteem.
By combining all three, you can definitely make a consistent argument for Morris in the HOF above others.
Morris (13) > Walter Johnson (11)???
DeleteThat's what your system says...
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DeleteDavid, you're being obtuse. Walter Johnson was dead 10 years before the first Cy Young awards were given.
DeleteNeel's system is obviously only valid for players since 1956, and not for comparing pitchers across all eras.
But that's Joe's direction: you're supposed to come up with a consistent system that you can implement to make these comparisons. That is, in fact, exactly the point of this whole exercise. Even coming up with something totally common-sense like this doesn't always work. I was being obtuse on purpose. That's the idea.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteNot to mention he retired before the 1st All-Star game ...
DeleteI accept Tango's challenge and go with Morris' mustache as the deciding factor. And that's iron-clad because no starting pitcher has ever had a greater mustache.
ReplyDeleteC'mon, Pete Vuckovich could totally give Morris a run for the 'stache title. Also, your argument is wrong because the modern equivalent to Morris would be decidedly un-HOFer Carl Pavano.
DeleteSeriously enough ... I'm not saying, *I* believe this but challenge accepted.
ReplyDeleteMorris led a decade in wins. That's awesome and that's my standard:
1900's - Christy Mathewson
1910's - Walter Johnson
1920's - Burleigh Grimes
1930's - Lefty Grove
1940's - Hal Newhouser
1950's - Warren Spahn
1960's - Juan Marichal
1970's - Jim Palmer
1980's - Jack Morris
1990's - Greg Maddux
I can accept anyone with more wins in a decade than Morris had in the 80s (162) is better than him:
1900s
Christy Mathewson236
Cy Young 230
Joe McGinnity218
Jack Chesbro 192
Vic Willis 188
Eddie Plank 186
Rube Waddell 183
Sam Leever 166
Jack Powell 160
George Mullin 157
1910s
Walter Johnson 265
Pete Alexander208
Eddie Cicotte 162
Hippo Vaughn 156
Slim Sallee 149
Rube Marquard 144
Eddie Plank 140
Christy Mathewson137
Claude Hendrix 135
Hooks Dauss 125
1920s
Burleigh Grimes 190
Eppa Rixey 166
Pete Alexander165
Herb Pennock 162
Waite Hoyt 161
Urban Shocker 156
Eddie Rommel 154
Jesse Haines 153
George Uhle 152
Red Faber 149
1930s
Lefty Grove 199
Carl Hubbell 188
Red Ruffing 175
Wes Ferrell 170
Lefty Gomez 165
Mel Harder 158
Larry French 156
Tommy Bridges 150
Paul Derringer 148
Dizzy Dean 147
1940s
Hal Newhouser170
Bob Feller 137
Rip Sewell 133
Dizzy Trout 129
Dutch Leonard 122
Bucky Walters 122
Mort Cooper 114
Claude Passeau 111
Kirby Higbe 105
Harry Brecheen 105
Bobo Newsom 105
1950s
Warren Spahn 202
Robin Roberts 199
Early Wynn 188
Billy Pierce 155
Bob Lemon 150
Mike Garcia 128
Lew Burdette 126
Don Newcombe126
Whitey Ford 121
Johnny Antonelli 116
1960s
Juan Marichal 191
Bob Gibson 164
Don Drysdale 158
Jim Bunning 150
Jim Kaat 142
Larry Jackson 141
Sandy Koufax 137
Jim Maloney 134
Milt Pappas 131
Camilo Pascual 127
1970s
Jim Palmer 186
Gaylord Perry 184
Steve Carlton 178
Tom Seaver 178
Fergie Jenkins 178
Catfish Hunter 169
Don Sutton 166
Phil Niekro 164
Nolan Ryan 155
Vida Blue 155
1980s
Jack Morris 162
Dave Stieb 140
Bob Welch 137
Fernando Valenzuela128
Charlie Hough 128
Bert Blyleven 123
Nolan Ryan 122
Jim Clancy 119
Frank Viola 117
Rick Sutcliffe 116
1990s
Greg Maddux 176
Tom Glavine 164
Roger Clemens 152
Randy Johnson 150
Kevin Brown 143
John Smoltz 143
David Cone 141
Mike Mussina 136
Chuck Finley 135
Scott Erickson 130
Sam Leever? Well, he was pretty good. So, yeah, I can live with this. THAT's my framework.
The "decade" would be any 10 years, right? It doesn't have to start with a 0?
DeleteNope, my terms. Starts with a zero.
DeleteOk, so who finishes ahead of Pedro in the 1990s and who finishes ahead of Pedro in the 2000s? Here, I'll tell you. In the 1990s, you have, among many others: Jaime Navarro, John Burkett, Todd Stottlemyre. Not to mention his own brother. In the 2000s: Jeff Suppan, Linan, Kevin Millwood.
DeleteSo, try again.
You think I don't know that? I said it was "fraught with issues" - you don't have to be a dick about it.
DeleteThe corollary is that any pitcher with fewer than 162 wins in a decade is a worse pitcher than Morris:
DeleteFeller, Ford, Koufax, Ryan, Clemens, R. Johnson, P. Martinez.
All worse pitchers than Jack Morris.
Right. I get that. I thought this was a little silly/fun question and took it as such.
DeleteWAR, for instance, rates Reuschel ahead of:
Palmer
Sutton
Feller
Marichal
Halladay
Smoltz
Ford
Koufax
etc. etc.
It's easy to play "gotcha" all day long with ANY framework - even the most logical ones. There is no magic bullet. Which is why we have to look at the bigger picture and take everything into account.
For the record, I don't *personally* think "wins by decade" is a good standard at all. I just threw it out there in the spirit of good fun.
A neat compilation, nevertheless. Even with the arbitrariness of starting each decade with a year ending in 0, look at who was in the top 10 in two separate decades -- Matthewson, Plank, and Ryan. Thanks, rdcobb!
DeleteI think that the goal was to create a framework by which you would avoid anybody WORSE than Morris qualifying for the Hall of Fame. By bringing up pitchers with fewer wins and claiming that the framework's creator is saying that those guys are worse than Morris you're being facetious.
DeleteHis framework does not call those players worse than Morris. His framework shows that Morris belongs in the Hall of Fame crowd, by creating a standard by which an absolutely minimal number of players ahead of him are not Hall of Fame caliber.
(wish there was an edit function)
DeleteBasically the goal of the exercise is to create a statistic by which Jack Morris becomes the Hall of Fame standard within that statistic, and that statistic alone. Therefore: although not qualifying by that metric, those players behind him still qualify by other metrics. Just as how Ozzie Smith qualifies despite the fact that he didn't achieve 500 homeruns. As a power hitter - you must achieve 500 to achieve the Hall. But non-power hitters have other metrics to achieve.
Jack Morris achieved a successful "Jack" (or decade beginning with a 0 leading the game in wins). 1 Jack is automatic inclusion in the Hall. Players that didn't specialize in achieving a "Jack" can still qualify by other metrics and may even be better overall players.
Of course, the above standard is still fraught with issues. But, then again, so is using WAR. Or ERA. Or whatever other single standard you want to use.
ReplyDeleteWAR is not a "single" standard.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteIt is in the context "pick a framework."
DeleteUnder your definition, what is NOT a "single" standard?
DeleteI'm just using what I understood JOE's definition to be for the purposes of this exercise. Pick *one* framework and you are married to it, warts and all.
DeleteJoe, any idea whether we can get an RSS feed of your specific articles from SoE?
ReplyDeleteThis is so simplistic as to be facile. No responsible thinker would ever posit use of a single standard or a framework of combined matrices as absolute. We should use information at our disposal to approach truth from numerous directions, in full knowledge that our set of knowledge is inaccurate and flawed, and that it will continue to be so. I don't support Jack Morris as a Hall of Famer, but this challenge needs a clear rejection.
ReplyDeleteImplicit in Tangotiger's above response to rdcobb is that he believes we should use multiple standards. Why, then, force a candidacy into a single, quantifiable box?
I thought Poz did a great job at explaining it. In my email to Poz, I said:
DeleteHowever, the key point is the implementation of that framework. Some are transparent about it (Win Shares, fWAR, rWAR). But others are not, like your typical fan "I consider everything". Except the typical fan really means "I consider everything, in an inconsistent and ad-hoc manner".
While I agree with you that Morris shouldn't be a Hall of Famer, here is a pretty solid framework.
ReplyDeleteMorris was more famous. And it is the Hall of Fame.
Play around with that framework for awhile.
Brien Taylor:
DeleteMajor League pitches thrown = 0
Fame? = Check.
Thus Hall of Famer. Nope. Don't think that metric will work, either.
Even if we just stick to baseball, Don Larsen.
DeleteDoc Gooden?
Fernando-mania?
Every flash in the pan who makes a huge splash when they first come up?
Heck, I'm sure there are hundreds of thousands of fans who remember who Todd Van Poppel is, just because of his rookie card. There's an A's blog called 'The Todd Van Poppel Rookie Card Retirement Plan'.
Brien Taylor, famous? Sorry, being known by half of Baseball America's subscribers isn't fame.
DeleteHave put a little more thought into this since I first posted it. Now I believe Fame is a better standard than I first imagined.
DeleteYou guys arguing against it are posting straw men. Nobody during Don Larsen's career would have argued that he merited Hall of Fame induction. Same with Gooden and Valenzuela.
Jack Morris' Hall credentials were actively debated at the end of his career both by the statistically minded, and others. By the Fame standard, he's borderline, not a shoo-in.
I can think of two players who might have been voted in under the Fame standard who don't deserve it: Steve Garvey and Keith Hernandez.
But think about the players who were considered most famous in whatever past decades you remember. How many of them really don't deserve Hall of Fame recognition? I think you'll be surprised to find it's not that many, and Fame is a better standard than we think.
My friend Glenn asked me to quantify Fame. That kind of ruins the point. I've spent most of my baseball fan life as a believer in stats as descriptors of history. But think about the Fame standard: what active players would people in 1995 have thought deserved to go in the Hall? And how accurate were they?
I have a fairly silly one: Jack Morris ranks 3rd all time in putouts by a pitcher with 387, behind only Kevin Brown and Greg Maddux. Reuschel is actually also in the top ten, but with a much more pedestrian 328 putouts to his name. The top ten (also called OMG Maddux)
ReplyDelete1. Greg Maddux (23) 546 R
2. Kevin Brown (19) 388 R
3. Jack Morris (18) 387 R
4. Phil Niekro+ (24) 386 R
5. Fergie Jenkins+ (19) 363 R
6. Gaylord Perry+ (22) 349 R
7. Don Sutton+ (23) 334 R
8. Orel Hershiser (18) 332 R
9. Rick Reuschel (19) 328 R
Tom Seaver+ (20) 328 R
Joe, I'm sad that Keltner came up and you didn't even mention the DiMaggio streak. Game 57. Yankees - Indians. 67,468 in attendance at Muni Stadium. Keltner makes two reportedly fantastic defensive plays (1st and 7th innings) to aid in stopping the Streak at 56. DiMaggio also walked and, in his final at-bat, ground into a double play. That's a good trivia question. In the at-bat that would end the streak, who were the fielder's involved in the 6-4-3 double play?
ReplyDeleteDiMaggio would go on to jokingly refer to Keltner as "The Culprit". I find it rather neat myself that it was a true defensive whiz that was needed to stop ole Joe, not some bum bad luck.
You didn't even mention that AFTER that game 57, D hit in another 21 (or something like it) consecutive games! And yet I still consider him to be ridiculously overrated.
DeleteI haven't done the math (and it would probably take an immense amount of time), but what about career average Game Score? Or number of seasons with a Game Score average a full standard deviation above the league average to adjust for era and changes in how pitchers are used.
ReplyDeleteStrike that - B-R actually has it available. The standard deviation thing is probably way too much of a hassle so I'll do five year peaks instead.
DeleteMorris, over his career: 53, while the league average was 52. His 5 year peak: 59.5 (37 starts), 53.8 (35), 57.7 (35), 59.5 (35), 58.6 (34). It comes out to an average game score of 57.83.
Reuschel, over his career: 53, while the league average over that time was 51. 5 year peak: 62.3 (31), 50.3 (35), 56.5 (34), 54.5 (36), 55.1 (32), coming out to an average of 55.58.
Interestingly enough, despite this, the quality start percentages are in Reuschel's favor over these same time periods - 72% to 66%.
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ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteMan, there's no formatting in these comments--third time's the charm, I hope...
ReplyDeleteI've always liked Bill James' HOF metrics, the Blank Ink Test, Gray Ink Test, HOF Standards and HOF Monitor. Full descriptions can be found at
http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/leader_glossary.shtml#black_ink
The numbers in parentheses are what the typical HOF achieved.
Morris
Black Ink (40) 20
Gray Ink (185) 193
HOF Monitor (100) 122
HOF Standards (50) 39
Reuschel
Black Ink 7
Gray Ink 111
HOF Monitor 48
HOF Standards 31
For the full description, read Bill James' 1995 book "Whatever Happened to the Hall of Fame".
For starting pitchers and position players:
ReplyDelete60+ career rWAR
OR
5+ seasons of 5+ rWAR
I'm with Scott above in looking to Bill James. In my mind, it's the "Hall of Fame," not the "Hall of Impressive Accumulated Statistics." We can argue about the degree to which those things are correlated or not (or should be), but nonetheless among the things that in the past have been associated with fame are leading leagues, being on All-Star teams, winning awards and playing in the playoffs (all things measured by James' analysis).
ReplyDeleteThis argument all boils down to how you define "Fame." For decades it was defined by writers waxing poetic, whose judgment was colored by their own biases. Now I feel the pendulum has swing too far the other way (at least in the stat-head community) by those who want their notion of "Fame" defined purely through statistical methods (which seems absurd by definition when you think about it)...
The reality is that everybody has their own definition of what makes a ballplayer "famous," and they live along a spectrum from purely mythological to purely statistical, with the great distance in between representing a blend of the two...
The question isn't necessarily about the Hall of Fame. It may lead to that, but that's not really the question.
ReplyDeleteThe question is about accomplishments, or production, or performance, or talent. It's not about how much press he got.
Right now, the best someone has offered is the Bill James Hall of Fame monitor. While that framework was created to reflect how players have been voted into the HOF, it still has application outside of the HOF. It has a point system, and it's transparent. It leads to reasonable results for the most part, though it's only useful at the career level.
Its problems are apparent, but given such a simple system, its results are fairly strong.
And for people who think all of this is silly: well, I guess everything about baseball is really silly when you get down to it. But, to the extent that people are passionate enough to argue about who's better than who, then this is not a silly exercise at all under that idea.
The exercise here is to force you to be consistent and end the idea of starting with your opinion and then trying to justify it. That is, you should start with the evidence, and let that lead you to the conclusion, and not the other way around.
I think that was Bill's greatest contribution to the field: start with the question.
The term "fame" in hall of fame refers to the fact that induction is meant to confer fame, not recognize it.
ReplyDeleteThe HOF was never intended to recognize and reward "famous."
When you search "Jack Morris" on Google you get "About 23,600,000 results."
ReplyDeleteWhen you search "Rick Reuschel" on Google you only get "About 152,000 results."
Of course if you go by this then Bo Jackson (about 20,000,000 results) is more worthy of the Hall than Albert Pujols (about 9,090,000 results)...
Here's the magic factor: leading the majors in wins over a five-year span. Apart from some of the 300-game winners and Don Drysdale, ALL the BBWAA-elected starting pitchers have at least one five-year title. Morris has three, Reuschel has none. I like the "decade" idea, but it turns out half of one is necessary. Only sixty pitchers since 1876 have led the majors in wins over at least one five-year stretch. Thirty-five of them are already in the Hall – twenty-four elected by the BBWAA and eleven by the Veterans Committee – while eleven pitchers are too recent to be considered for enshrinement just yet: and they include Pedro Martinez, Johan Santana, CC Sabathia, and Roy Halladay. I have a whole study of it, for anyone who cares. . . .
ReplyDeleteIn cases like this, I would poll all of Morris' and Reuschel's former teammates and coaches and ask them what they thought of each pitcher's HoF candidacy. I know player judgement is suspect at best, and probably uninformed in most cases, but it speaks to something, doesn't it?
ReplyDeleteIn the wake of the Red Sox mess, doesn't peer respect seem at least of at least slight importance?
My wife is Japanese and born into baseball fanship, but not in this country's culture. When I made my pilgrimage to Cooperstown, I tried to explain to her that while I saw a photo of Roger Maris in the Hall of Fame, he was not actually in the Hall of Fame. I tried for a while. Then I realized she has a point.
ReplyDeleteI've not been to the baseball HOF, so please correct me if I'm wrong here. The building in Cooperstown, NY is called the "National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum." The "museum" contains all kinds of "famous" bits of baseball history, including Don Larson's perfect game and Ichiro Suzuki's single-season record for hits. In other words, much of the game's "fame" is celebrated and is on full display in the museum. Within the museum is the "Plaque Gallery," which contains the plaques of all the inducted players.
ReplyDeleteIt seems then that those accomplishing famous feats in baseball can indeed have their "fame" celebrated in the museum, even if some of them don't have induction plaques. It also seems to me that earning an induction plaque requires more than just fame, and that perhaps players should be inducted even if they were not involved in a any famous moments.
Statborgs hate Black Jack. Statborgs love Jimmy Wynn. They hate Jim Rice, now they've decided Rick Reuschel is the Borg pet du jour. They hate Andre Dawson, they love Raines. You can't talk any sense to them, so don't try. Morris goes in the Hall, expect Neyer, Tango and Lederer's collective heads will explode. I can hardly wait.
ReplyDeleteThe Hall of Fame already had numerous questionable members by the time the advanced statistics crowd came of age. "Statborgs" love baseball for the stories and for the numbers and for all of the really fun and amazing things you can do with the numbers, if you have just a bit of imagination. I don't think that any traditionalists suffered exploded craniums when Blyleven was inducted, I'm sure the fans of sabermetrics will survive if Morris gets voted in.
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How about this framework:
ReplyDeleteHe was considered the ace of three different world champion pitching staffs.